Time magazine’s new issue (no link to the text is available) includes this weird explanation of how torture helped track down Osama bin Laden:
Interrogators grilled 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed for details about the courier. When he pleaded ignorance, they knew they were on to something promising. Al-Libbi, the senior Al-Qaeda figure captured in 2005, also played dumb. Both men were subjected to so-called enhanced interrogation techniques, including, in Mohammed’s case, the waterboard.
As best I can tell, the argument here is that they got no information about the Al-Qaeda courier from torturing these two detainees–which was just the crucial lead needed to crack the case. So the fact that torturing these two detainees did not produce information proves that torturing is a useful way to produce information.
The piece goes on to say, “The report that Mohammed and al-Libbi were more forthcoming after the harsh treatment guarantees that the argument will go on.” Does that make any sense at all? Or is this just more evidence that anything and everything can be used by torture proponents to claim vindication?
Marcy Wheeler’s coverage of this discussion at FireDogLake has been excellent, and seems more to the point:
But there are two points that seem key in assessing the torture question. First, both KSM and al-Libi had critical intelligence they withheld under torture. KSM knew of Abu Ahmed’s trusted role and real name; al-Libi knew Abu Ahmed was OBL’s trusted courier and may have known of what became OBL’s compound.
And neither of them revealed that information to the CIA.
They waterboarded KSM 183 times in a month, and he either never got asked about couriers guarding OBL, or he avoided answering the question honestly. Had KSM revealed that detail, Bush might have gotten OBL eight years ago.
One other consideration–raised by Matthew Alexander on CounterSpin–is that the courier’s nickname allegedly offered by Khalid Sheik Mohammed was probably not all that helpful. Indeed, a Los Angeles Times article (5/5/11), based on interviews with various government officials, makes this point:
They stressed that none of the three most critical pieces of information–the courier’s name, the area of Pakistan in which he operated and the location of the compound in which Bin Laden was living–came from detainees.
The argument against torture here focuses on its failures, and while that’s important to keep in mind, the principal reason to oppose it is that it’s just plain fucking evil.
At the heart of the propaganda for it is that it’s necessary to save lives. It has to be done to â┚¬Ã…“protect usâ┚¬Ã‚Â, doesn’t it?
In a far different world, where the US really were â┚¬Ã…“the good guysâ┚¬Ã‚Â, in a truly dire situation, where torture had some real possibility of working, and was the absolute last resort to prevent deaths, perhaps a case could be made for it.
That’s the scenario the bastards try to conjure in our minds, isn’t it?
But none of those conditions exist in reality, do they? The US tortured because it could, because it brooked no limits on its â┚¬Ã…“Global War of Terrorâ┚¬Ã‚Â.
And if torture has been ended by Dear Misleader, it has nothing to do with the inhumanity of it, only the efficacy.
(And Bradley Manning’s treatment would seem to put that into question, as well as the US’ penchant for sending prisoners to gummints who torture as SOP.)
To those who say the US has â┚¬Ã…“lost its wayâ┚¬Ã‚Â, I’d point them to the history books â┚¬“ the honest ones, at any rate.
This has been â┚¬Ã…“the American Wayâ┚¬Ã‚ for centuries, and will continue to be until we have the conscience and courage to say:
Not in our name.
No more.
Absolutely. It is “just plain fucking evil”. Besides being unnecessary, time consuming, expensive, and it rots the very soul of the people involved. It is evil, and we should take the moral high ground and not submit to the temptation that it will “make us safer”.
Worth a look: PHR links to
“Bad Science Used to Justify and Support Torture and Human Experimentation”
This article is a milestone, because it is published in a world class scientific journal that rarely engages directly in social controversy. Their advocacy is more usually of the “low-key, behind the scenes professional” variety. Does it work? Who knows? I hope so. The good news is that Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) has published links to the article on its website.
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dots have been removed from link below to avoid automatic spam bounce
http physiciansforhumanrights org/library/documents/articles/allen-keller-iacopino-science html
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Text at link:
Article Shows that the US Government Used Bad Science to Commit and Conceal Torture
PHR Medical Experts Published in Science Magazine [7 January 2011]
In an article published by the journal Science, PHR experts Dr. Scott Allen, Dr. Allen Keller, and Dr. Vince Iacopino show that the Bush administration relied on flawed science to justify the use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EITs) which were previously recognized as torture by the US government. The article, Bad Science Used to Support Torture and Human Experimentation can be found in the January 7, 2011, issue of Science.
Summary [link]
Reprint (pdf) [link]
Full Text [link]
© Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) 2009
Physicians for Human Rights, 2 Arrow Street, Suite 301, Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel 617.301.4200 Fax 617.301.4250
Hell yes you can get results from torture. You can also get higher profits from slavery. Do we really believe that expediency should be our main motivator???
Don’t forget about murder during the course of bank robbery, Carol–it’s always best to eliminate witnesses. That way, bank robbery can be highly successful, and very profitable. Yes, expediency should be our main motivator, along with cartoonish, immature ideas about justice, the law, and moral responsibility. Ask John Yoo about it.
Breaking news:
Osama bin Laden has been dead for years.
UPI admits that neutral observers have noted glaring differences between the alleged “Osama bin Laden” videos: “Bin Laden was suffering from a kidney ailment and some experts say he died Dec. 13, four days after his escape from Tora Bora. Videos since then, neutral experts say, show bin Laden writing with his right hand but he is well known as left-handed. They also detected differences in the shape of the nose, skin color and speech.”
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Analysis/2010/07/26/Commentary-Elvis-bin-Laden/UPI-65401280146819/
“Prof Codevilla pointed to inconsistencies in the videos and claimed there have been no reputable sightings of Bin Laden for years (for instance, all interceptions by the West of communications made by the Al Qaeda leader suddenly ceased in late 2001). Prof Codevilla asserted: ‘The video and audio tapes alleged to be Osama’s never convince the impartial observer,’ he asserted. ‘The guy just does not look like Osama. Some videos show him with a Semitic, aquiline nose, while others show him with a shorter, broader one. Next to that, differences between the colours and styles of his beard are small stuff.'”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212851/Has-Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-seven-years–U-S-Britain-covering-continue-war-terror.html
A very conservative blog in the middle of the overtly conservative Bush-Cheney administration states plainly that the tapes are fake and that bin Laden has been dead for years:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/john-stephenson/2007/09/12/digital-forensics-expert-osama-video-definite-fake
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9777136-7.html?tag=mncol;title
tapes are fake, bin Laden has been dead for years
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=3828678
bin Laden has been dead since December 2001, the tapes are all badly-done forgeries, everyone except the C.I.A. seems to realize this
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/13/osama-bin-elvis
I agree with Doug.
Another point about torture appropriate to those who employ and defend the procedure: they are mimicking the Nazi regime and Stalin’s MKVD. When the subject of the bush/cheney torture appears in the news media (documentation), it should be illustrated with photographs of victims of all the practitioners of the art identifying, of course, the architects under each photograph. Why not throw in a little Spanish Inquisition and perhaps an illustration or two of the Salem witch dunking or the piling on of stones?
As Alyosha said in The Brothers Karamazov, there has to be a hell to punish such evil.
Torture isn’t used to get real information, it is used to harm people and terrorize others. That is why usually but not always they would release them. Or would place the bodies where the signs of torture can be seen.
Torture is wrong, evil, un-Constitutional and President Obama is in violation for not turning over the past regime, and elements of his own for doing just that in violation of the Anti-Torture Treaty.
@Brutal Truth:
Uh-huh. The moon landing was faked, too.
[sigh]
Look- torture works.It works well in many cases. The question is not did it work in this case or not. The question is not was it actually torture. The question must be framed differently. Discussions must all center on one question.DO WE AS A PEOPLE TORTURE?WILL WE AS A PEOPLE TORTURE?My feeling is if the answer is yes….. then we are on a slippery slope of how well CAN we torture.My mind boggles at how advancements in science and technology will push that along.Not a slippery slope as much as an evil slope.