A cover that declares a “War on Christians” is bound to get some attention. 
Writing in the February 12 issue of Newsweek, author Ayaan Hirsi Ali‘s argument is just as blunt. Enough with all this talk “about Muslims as victims of abuse,” because really it’s the other way around:
A wholly different kind of war is underway–an unrecognized battle costing thousands of lives. Christians are being killed in the Islamic world because of their religion. It is a rising genocide that ought to provoke global alarm.
To suggest that a genocide is underway is, of course, a serious charge. And Hirsi Ali alleges that it is widespread:
In recent years, the violent oppression of Christian minorities has become the norm in Muslim-majority nations stretching from West Africa and the Middle East to South Asia and Oceania.
To make matters worse the media have been cowed into silence, due to “the influence of lobbying groups such as the Organization of Islamic Cooperation–a kind of United Nations of Islam centered in Saudi Arabia–and the Council on American-Islamic Relations.” She writes:
Over the past decade, these and similar groups have been remarkably successful in persuading leading public figures and journalists in the West to think of each and every example of perceived anti-Muslim discrimination as an expression of a systematic and sinister derangement called “Islamophobia”–a term that is meant to elicit the same moral disapproval as xenophobia or homophobia.
So there is a genocide underway, and there are specific groups obscuring this fact and steering media away from covering this horror–in effect making them complicit in the genocide.
This is a remarkably serious charge. It is rather shocking to see it printed in a national magazine with so little evidence.
Ali’s piece is accompanied by a large graphic (which doesn’t appear to be online) labeled “Terrorist Attacks on Christians in Africa, the Middle East and Asia.” According to the graph, there were 45 such attacks in 2010. Violence of this sort is tragic; the anecdotes Hirsi Ali cites from Nigeria sound horrific.
But is it a genocide? And is the violence directed against Christians on the basis of religion? It is hard to see how one could make such a leap. In Egypt, for instance, Hirsi Ali points to an incident where Christian protesters were killed by state security forces. Hundreds have been killed in similar circumstances in Egypt over the past year. They were not all Christians, and they were not killed in a drive to stamp out members of a particular faith.
Hirsi Ali finds similar evidence elsewhere: “Since 2003, more than 900 Iraqi Christians (most of them Assyrians) have been killed by terrorist violence in Baghdad alone.” Of course, Baghdad has suffered terrible violence since the U.S. invasion and occupation. It is unclear why these particular deaths, a small percentage of total killings in Baghdad, should be considered part of a genocidal Muslim campaign against Christians. She adds that “thousands” of Iraqi Christians have fled their homes. But millions of Iraqis have done the same, across ethnic and religious lines. It’s hard to conclude that anti-Christian genocide is the story that is being kept out of the media by the likes of CAIR.
Hirsi Ali pleads with readers that we must “please get our priorities straight…. Instead of falling for overblown tales of Western Islamophobia, let’s take a real stand against the Christophobia infecting the Muslim world.”
It’s hard to know what she means; is there really some great danger that the West is doing too much to protect Muslims? The real implication here is that there is a genocide that must be stopped. That is an extremely serious charge. She fails to provide evidence to support that case, and manages to smear a major American Islamic advocacy group in the process.
Maybe this is a cost cutting move.
I’d assume fact-ferreting investigations are a good deal more expensive than propaganda screeds.
As well as a good deal more pleasing to the powers that be.
Finally someone brings light to what is REALLY happening in the middle east… Specifically Iraq. Go look up how many Assyrians are being displaced out of their homes in Iraq because of muslim extremists. Go Read that some of the deadliest attacks were on innocent people while they were in church.
Baffles me that people are so ignorant to think this is propaganda.
Allow me to provide a short, but nevertheless accurate background on Ayaan Hishi Ali.
Ms Ali came to the Netherlands as a REFUGEE, claiming she hailed from Somalia and feared for her life.
Fact: Ms. Ali was on her way to Canada presumably to marry her cousin which was arranged by her family. While on a lay over in Germany she “split” and spent 3 months with a cousin living in Germany, studying every EU country social programs in order to find one where she had the best hope of succeeding, while claiming victim-hood.
Fact: Mr. Ali then entered the Netherlands, promptly requested political asylum, claiming she was a victim of Somali war as well as female circumcision. She gave a false name…that of her grandfather and provided a fictional date of birth.
Fact: Ms Ali did NOT hail from Somalia but from Kenya where she moved with her family at around 11 years of age. Her father is a physician trained in Italy as well as the U.S. While she does hail from a Muslim family, the likelyhood of her having been circumcised is not very great since the patriarch, her father,, controlled the household and having been educated in the West would not have his daughter circumcised since he, as a physician, knew the ramification of that.
Fact: Ms. Ali was provided with the very best of University education paid for by Dutch taxpayers.
She received Dutch citizenship. She received housing, free medical care and a stipend to live off, as she studied.
Fact: Ms. Ali ran for public office and was elected a member of the Dutch Parliament. Ms. Ali started a furious campaign of attacking Islam. This got the attention of Theo van Gogh, the unsuccessful author, unsuccessful film maker and enfant terrible who in his anger would spout non-stop invectives on public tv/radio.
They formed a aliens that was solely based on their hatred towards Islam. They made a movie call “Submission”. These activities caused great upheaval in Holland.
Fact. While biking though Amsterdam, Theo van Gogh was brutally murdered by an unstable Dutch Muslim who cut his thoat. On his chest the killer left a note stating that Ayaan Hirshi Ali would be next, as would Job Cohen, Mayor of Amsterdam.
The Dutch Security moved Ms Ali to a different address and provided strict security. She continued with her hatred. In the meantime, a large percentage of the Dutch population, which is liberal, sympathized with her and called her a heroin.
Eventually Ms. Ali left the Netherlands and came to the U.S. which was entirely funded by the Dutch Government/taxpayer. It also paid for her security. She started working for the American Enterprise Institute, which can hardly be considered a liberal body. After about 1 year, the Dutch Government decided to no longer fund Ms Ali and to stop her security detail. She sued the Dutch Government.
Ms Ali is a pathological liar and an opportunist.
What is striking in her case is the following:
Article 1 of the Dutch constitution strictly FORBIDS any form of discrimination against anyone because of color/religion/lifestyle. Therefore anyone engaged in what would be considered hate speech is subject to arrest and trial.
Recently, another MP Geert Wilders found himself in the Courts precisely because he had made hatefull and insulting remarks against Muslims. So why was Ms. Ali NOT??
To Dow Jones my suggestion would be to not believe 99% of what you read and to first do a thorough research on exactly who is talking and what is his/her agenda. It is Ms Ali who lies and engages in propaganda. She is a very smart woman who knows that hatred, and especially hatred towards Islam SELLS. She will use whatever benefits her.
To Doug: Ms. Ali has quite a history in Holland, some of it listed above.
Mr. Ali has only ONE agenda and that is HERS
Nice big smelly red herring Gerry.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s tumultous past makes for a fun diversion when you’re trying to divert from the facts… yes facts… she brings to light.
The genocide against virtually all non-Moslems in terrorist dominated countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and now Egypt is a simple mathematical reality. It’s unfortunate that only a passionate advocate for civilization like Ayaan Hirsi Ali is willing to bring it up. Jews, for example, once a thriving community in Iran, have had their numbers reduced effectively to zero. Christians are next on the list. In Syria-dominated Lebanon, the terrorists of Hezbollah continue their campaign against the still-sizeable Christian population. Copts in Egypt, long subjugated and opressed, are now even more violently targeted for attacks by terrorists. Saudi Arabia, where Christianity has been effectively extinct for generations, continues its opression of any who might dare bring so much as a Bible into the country. Even the newly democratic Iraq is exercising its “democracy” to opress and assault its Christian minority, frequently with the support of the terrorists from Iran.
The silence that greets these outrages is stupefying.
Meanwhile, anti-American, terrorist advocacy groups like CAIR make ludicrous accusations of “Islamophobia” in free countries like the United States which zealously guards the rights of all faiths, even those which seek its destruction. The credence these preposterous charges are given stands in stunning contrast to the conspiracy of silence over the ongoing attacks on Christians from Morocco to Kuala Lampur.
Do we confront this reality?
Nah, just shoot the messenger.
Even when she’s 100% right.
Spoken like a true Islamophobe.
Your “red Herring” comment suggests that my mentioning her background is a diversionary tactic.
Her background and her lies almost resulted in her Dutch citizenship being revoked and her being deported. She was a MP at the time. So it very much tells us who she is, and how far she will go in order to get her way. The choices me make speaks to our CHARACTER. Hers is severely flawed.
For over 64 years Israel with US support and financing has been engaged in wiping the Palestinians OFF the map. Numerous UN resolutions condemn their actions as war crimes. We support and finance these actions. That this would anger Muslims seems very rational to me.
Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Iran has the largest community of Jews in the Muslim world; it further has Christians and Zoroastrians. These religions are all protected. Chris, the M.E IS Muslim. Your stating that they are Muslim dominated therefore translates in them prosecuting Jews/Christians, in your mind?.
Ms Ali snookered the Dutch Government, made a good living spouting her hatred against Islam and today she’d be in jail in the Netherlands for spouting hate crimes.
From your writing I assume you are an Evangelical of the Florida Pastor kind who burned Korans.
Holland has been better off after Ayaan Hirshi Ali left. Any message from Ms Ali is self-serving and is addressed to the gullible masses
I survived Nazi occupation in Holland and 3 bombings by the allies with a faulty atlas. My father was in the Dutch underground and risked his life daily. My maternal grandparents had a safe house for Jews, with my grandmother wearing a Star of David on her coat. She was NOT a Jewess. Today my grandparents are turning in their graves because of the genocide the Israelis have committed against the Palestinian native population. By today’s standard my father would be called a “terrorist”
You need to grow up and stop listening to hateful propaganda…..”Islamophobia is alive and well in the U.S.
You are being victimized by fear that is not based on any reality, and you vilify those who would take away that fear by exposing it for what it is. You need to address the reason you so want to hold on to something that is not real and learn who the real victims are here. .
Newsweek pumps out a tremendous amount of crap, but this fable about purported genocide of the Christians is about as low as you can go.
Thanks Gerry for giving us the background about this pernicious propagandist, something I wish FAIR had highlighted. Ms. Ali’s career basically starts with the fact that she is a confessed liar about her Dutch political asylum application, and her MO is making a living out of exploiting hatred towards Islam that plays well to the bigoted Western political spectrum spanning the extreme right-wing to liberals.
Arabs and Muslims suffer the worst genocides in the world today, the prime example being the sanctions and attack on Iraq that killed and displaced millions. Malarky about genocides against Christians doesn’t pass the laugh test. What a sick person Ms. Ali must be to falsify reality so blatantly.
The “Dow Jones” and “Chris”‘s are living in a fascistic and paranoid Judeo-Christian fantasy world.
Make that “less pleasing”.
Oy …
Chris said: “Jews, for example, once a thriving community in Iran, have had their numbers reduced effectively to zero.”
What nonsense. There are approximately 25,000 Jews currently living in Iran. How could that be “effectively zero”.
Furthermore, the Jewish population had been declining since before the Islamic Revolution. Israel and the West are more developed nations, so it is natural for many Jews to leave Iran for economic reasons.
Chris also fails to mention that there is a seat reserved for a Jew in Iran’s Parliament, and that Jews are protected in the Iranian Constitution.
Of course the liberals will make excuses for radical Muslims. They hate Christians.
For the sell-outs like Tariq Ramadan, Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Taslima Nasrina, Salman Rushde, etc. â┚¬“ Dr. Farish Noor has this to say: â┚¬Ã…“A â┚¬Ã‹Å“moderate Islam’ that is Islamic shall remain rooted in the fundamentals of Islamic authenticity and the eternal values of Islam’s universal worlview, not the short term demands of US oil companies, conglomerates and think tanks. Central to this is the struggle for universal justice and equility, which is at the heart of the Islamic messageâ┚¬Ã‚…..
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/the-muslim-martin-luther/
Jewish religious text mention two Jewish Holocausts carried out by Romans. According to Jewish holy book Talmud (Gittin 57b): â┚¬Ã…“Four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar â┚¬“ While Gittin 58a claims that sixteen million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. The Book of Esther tells the story behind Jewish festive holiday of Purim, which is based on the slaughter of 75,000 non-Jewish Persians on the order of King Ahasueros (Xerxes) on the advice of his Jewish Queen Esther and Jewish prime minister Mordecai.
After entering Jerusalem on July 15, 1099 â┚¬“ the Christian Franks under the command of Godfrey of Bouilion slaughtered the entire Muslim and Jewish population (over 70,000) during the next three days.
In 1492, when Crusaders captured the last Muslim state in Spain, Garanada â┚¬“ they killed 3-5 million Muslims and 173,000 Jews as part of Inquisition.
On western hypocrisy on building tax-payers funded Holocaust Museums to highlight Jewish sufferings at the hands of Nazi regime – professor Norman Finkelstein said: â┚¬Ã…“Imagine the wailing accusations of hypocrisy here, if German were to build a national museum in Berlin to commemorate not the Nazi genocide but American slavery or the extermination of Native Americans.â┚¬Ã‚Â
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/holocausts-too-many-to-remember/
Sectarianism is by its very nature a bloody business. It is not only Christians who have suffered in Iraq. Mandeans, Yezidis, and minority Muslim communities been victims of self righteous true believers. Deliver us from sectarian power whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or Marxist. The convicted are a dangerous lot.
How about a whole issue dedicated to ALL the Victims of Death by Religion, Worldwide and Historywide??? What about that? Why not show how as long as there is Religion there will be people killed because of it? Wouldn’t THAT be something like Real Journalism?
Why not show stats and estimates about how much suffering and death there is Worldwide and in All Countries because of Religious Beliefs and Edicts?
Why not show how Wealthy ALL these Religions are whose basic tenents include caring for those who are Poor and Starving? Why not show how much Tax would be generated if Religion in America had to actually pay taxes?
Why not do an Entire Pictorial Issue showing us ALL where these Religious “Leaders” live and how they live? and include stories about those who stupidly believe they are contributing to the poor by giving to their respective Religions?
Wouldn’t THAT be something like Real Journalism?
Lawrence is absolutely correct…there has been more death and destruction in the name of some god than for any other reason throughout history…and it will continue as long as people continue to believe in gods and how their particular god is better than all the rest of the gods…when in reality there are no gods just people looking for an excuse to kill people they don’t like because they are not “like them”…sad and very very sick….
As the relative of a Coptic Christian raised in Egypt and who leaves many of his family there still I believe that there is truly discrimination and , yes, violence against the Christian minority. The stories from his family, which I have no reason to doubt (they still consider Egypt their nation) many whom I have met both here and abroad, are frightening to say the least. And in this case it matters not to me that religion has been cruel and unjust throughout history, this is now and this is real. Maybe not genocide, yet, but violence nonetheless. Clearly the culprit here is islam. I have read the koran, in passing, but my relative was forced to study it in his home nation. The attitude towards other religions is clear and certainly not up to our western tradition. Have an open mind- the messenger may not be genuine, does this say the message isn”t?
Will Aayan knows how Christians are treated in her model country, Israel?
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/12/25/jewish-group-christmas-is-anti-israel/
Gee Lawrence, what a good insight about how all religions are responsible for horrible acts of violence. Please share with us your strories of Presbyterians screaming “Jesus is Lord” while slaughtering unbelievers the way extremist Moslems have shouted “Allahu akbar” (Allah is great) while slaughtering hundreds of Christians. Oh, and sorry but anecdotes more than 600 years don’t count, as well as the roundly condemned murder of a total of nine abortionists in the past 40 years. I’m tired of the murder of Christians by extremist Moslems being ignored or excused for the simple reason that murdered Christians are politically incorrect victims.
I want to bring up another point, which is about the press. What kind of fools and knaves must the guys who run Newsweek be to run such a garish and hate-filled and seriously flawed article by a mentally unbalanced woman. Shouldn’t someone have the right to fire these misfits, and isn’t it a fairly obvious result of all our government’constant propaganda demonizing Muslims in general since 9/11? It is more than regrettable; it is a sign of moral weakness and of narrow mindedness.
The US press! What a damn joke it is.
If you would like to check an ongoing list of Christian victims of Moslem violence, just go to http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/ChristianAttacks.htm or you could just keep restricting your information to what you receive from the Ministry of Truth. After all, as T. S. Eliot said, “humankind cannot stand very much reality.”
All these people who are giving true Christianity a bad name are just desperate to be seen as victims, even as they victimize everyone who isn’t “One of Us”. It’s pathetic, really. That’s why I tend to call myself a Christite, instead of the now-filthy-sounding “Christian” term.
Gerry:
Iran has the largest community of Jews in the Muslim world; it further has Christians and Zoroastrians. These religions are all protected.
Wrong. The facts are that Jews and Christians are second class citizens with lower status than Blacks in the US during the Jim Crow period. Zoroastrians are nearly non-existent in Iran. There are more Zoroastrians in ONE Indian city than in the entire nation of Iran; which was their religion’s ancestral homeland.
Here are the facts on Iranian discrimination of religious minorities. Be informed before parroting Islamic lies:
Only Muslims are able to take part in the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and to conduct public affairs at a high level. According to the Constitution, non-Muslims cannot hold the following key decision-making positions:
– President of the Islamic Republic of Iran, who must be a Shi’a Muslim (Article 1156)
– Commanders in the Islamic Army (Article 1447)
– Judges, at any level (Article 163 and law of 1983 on the selection of judges 8)
Moreover, non-Muslims are not eligible to become members of the Parliament (the Islamic Consultative Assembly) through the general elections. Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians can only run for the specific seats allocated to these minorities by Article 64 of the Constitution: one seat for Zoroastrians, one seat for Jews, one seat for Assyrian and Chaldean Christians, one seat for Armenian Christians in the North and one seat for Armenian Christian in the South. However, these minorities are unable to play a role in mainstream politics. As for the nonrecognized religious minorities, they are totally excluded from any Parliamentary representation since they can neither vote nor be elected.
Finally, non-Muslims cannot become members of the very influential Guardian Council….
A study of the Penal Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran reveals that, for a number of offences, the punishment differs in function of the religion of the victim and/or the religion of the offender. The fate of Muslim victims and offenders is systematically more favorable than that of non-Muslims, showing that the life and physical integrity of Muslims is given a much higher value than that of non-Muslims. This institutionalized discrimination is particularly blatant for the following crimes10:
The sanctions for adultery vary widely according to the religion of both members of the couple. A Muslim man who commits adultery with a Muslim woman is punished by 100 lashes (Article 8811). However, a non-Muslim man who commits adultery with a Muslim woman is subject to the death penalty (Article 82-c12). If a Muslim man commits adultery with a non-Muslim woman, the Penal Code does not specify any penalty….
“Qisas”, or retaliation, is the right of revenge belonging to the victim’s heir. It implies that the punishment be equivalent in nature and severity to the offence. In the case of a murder, such a punishment is the death penalty. “Diyah”, or “blood money” compensation, is the possibility offered to the victim’s heir to forgo their right to “qisas” by accepting monetary compensation in exchange.
Articles 20714 and 20915 of the Penal Code provide that “qisas” is applicable when a Muslim is murdered. It is also applicable when the member of a recognized religious minority murders another member of a recognized religious minority (Article 21016). However, no provision of the Penal Code envisages the murder of a non-Muslim by a Muslim, the punishment of which is left to the discretion of the judges. Article 2 of the Penal Code states that “Every action or omission of an action for which there is a punishment in law, will be regarded as an offence”. On the contrary, in the absence of any punishment in law (like in the case of the murder of a non-Muslim by a Muslim) a judge can consider that no offence has taken place at all.
Article 29717 sets forth the rules for the calculation of the “blood money” to be paid to the family when the victim is a Muslim man. Its exact value is set each year to a certain amount by the Judiciary. At the date of the publication of the present report, the “blood money” compensation for a non-Muslim male victim who is a member of a recognized religious minority, or of a female victim (Muslim or non-Muslim) remains half of the compensation offered to the family of a Muslim male victim. Claims by relatives of a victim who was a member of a non-recognized religious minority are purely dismissed….
Article 881 of the Civil Code states that a non-Muslim is not allowed to inherit property from a Muslim. Moreover, the same article states that if one of the beneficiaries of a non-Muslim is Muslim, this individual (regardless of that person’s degree of relationship with the deceased) will collect the entire inheritance to the detriment of all other non-Muslim members of the family. In practice, this law not only discriminates against religious minorities but also encourages conversion to Islam through the lure of material retribution….
Marriage between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man is forbidden by Article 1059 of the Civil Code. However, Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women. This distinction is justified by the fact that the man is deemed to be the dominant partner in the couple. Therefore, if the man is Muslim, Islam is supposed to be dominant in the couple, whereas it would not be the case if the woman were Muslim and the man non-Muslim….
Gerry, could you please tell me if it is illegal to practice Islam in Israel as it is to illegal to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia and the Maldives?
As for “genocide” and “occupation”, will you show me that Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Indonesia has killed East Timor civilians during their bloody and brutal occupation and invasion of that once independent land?
No?
What’s the matter, Gerry? Uncomfortable when facts are around?
You speak of Anti-Semitism as only natural to Israel’s actions but you don’t seem to make this excuse for Western nations or peoples in response to massacres of Christians in East Timor or the Sudan.
And, on top of all that, what about the discriminatory, Islam derived laws persecuting Christians and other religious minorities in the Muslim world?
As for the author, perhaps if he had done some basic research he would be aware that the Egyptian security forces AND Muslim vigilantes joined forces in the Maspero Massacre to attack the Christians protesting previous attacks on their communities by Muslim rage mobs.
Genocide, ethnic cleansing, universal persecution…call it whatever you want. Christianity and Christians are under attack. Hundreds of thousands have been directly killed and tens of millions are living as slaves in the Muslim world under the jack-boot of Islam.
AbuBooBoo wrote: Genocide, ethnic cleansing, universal persecutionâ┚¬Ã‚¦call it whatever you want.
_____________________________________________________
No. It doesn’t work that way. Discrimination against Christians does not make it genocide. Nor does acts of violence make a genocide. It’s a serious charge to throw around and you can’t point to disparate treatment or violence and say ergo genocide. The US kills, via capital punishment, many minorities and is far more likely to do so when the victim is white. Ergo genocide, right? See the problem?
Hey, Johnny Boy, where were you when Gerry made the following assertion on this thread?
For over 64 years Israel with US support and financing has been engaged in wiping the Palestinians OFF the map.
Serious charge, right, Johnny Boy?
The US kills, via capital punishment, many minorities and is far more likely to do so when the victim is white. Ergo genocide, right? See the problem?
Care to cite the same type of laws in the US targeting minorities I would have no problem finding in the Muslim world?
The genocide charge against Christians is hyperbole as I’m freely willing to admit. Note that Hirsi doesn’t actually say Genocide is being performed but notes a “rising genocide”. It’s a non-issue and FAIR, like you, is diplomatically silent when Liberal rags and Muslim websites make the same type of assertions that Muslims are experiencing genocide.
Then again, I don’t hypocritically claim – or turn a blind eye to those who do claim – Israel or the West is committing genocide (serious charge, right?) against the Muslim world as Muslim supremacist spin machine sites such as LoonWatch do on a routine basis.
So, what’s your and this website’s excuse, Johnny Boy?
Rehmat: â┚¬Ã…“Four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar â┚¬“ …” Gee, really? There weren’t that many people in the world in those days, let alone Jewish ones in one city in Roman times. I’m afraid this and other little slips in your comments undermine my confidence in your reliability. And even if you were quoting it accurately, which seems doubtful, the Talmud is not an accurate historical source.
^ There are a string of websites – mostly anti-“Zionist”, Muslim missionary and neo-Nazi that carry the quote about “four billion”.
I assume Rehmat, avid reader of this website, I’m sure, lifted the quote from one of the above type of websites.
@AbuBooBoo: Fine. You and Gerry are both throwing around unsupported assertions. Happy now? But you’re writing in the most dickish way possible now, so I responded to you.
And lemme get this straight: If there were laws here in the US that target minorities, then in your eyes it’s equivalent to Islamic countries that have laws that discriminate against other religions and thefore ipso facto genocide? Even though the laws in Islamic countries don’t result in anything close to the number of deaths that capital punishment does here in the US? Not following you there: there’s a difference between state-sponsored discrimination and genocide in my mind. And what of Rwanda? That was clearly a genocide, but what discriminatory laws on the books led to the mass killings?
You wrote: “Genocide, ethnic cleansing, universal persecutionâ┚¬Ã‚¦call it whatever you want. Christianity and Christians are under attack. Hundreds of thousands have been directly killed and tens of millions are living as slaves in the Muslim world under the jack-boot of Islam.” You sure don’t seem to acknowledge the hyperbole, as you claim. In fact, you seem to be eagerly joining in.
Is there a genocide against Christians? No. Are they being martyred in other countries? Yes. Minorities being persecuted by the majority? Inconceivable!
John, genocide is brandied about quite a bit on Leftist rags. Americans (and Israelis) are often accused of committing ‘genocide’ against Muslims. Gerry is exhibit A.
LoonWatch crank and rageboy, Danios, has made the claim quite often before in his rants.
Turnabout is fair play, afterall. And I’m sure you would agree FAIR.org or any Leftwing rag would never take issue with Danios’ throwing around “genocide” like it has with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
But, besides the genocide comment I made in passing, and at the tail end of my post, do you have any other issue with either my previous post or the Ayaan article that’s being attacked for some reason by the author of this hit piece? Do you agree with the overall contents but were simply expressing a minor disagreement with my/Ayaan’s use of terminology?
From my perspective, it seems the “Left” and their ilk, like Gerry, are more upset with words like “genocide” (when it’s Muslims being accused of genocide) used in the article than they are with the actual contents of the Ayaan Hirsi Ali article itself.
Im not quite sure Ali is wrong about the “genocide” being committed against non-Muslims in the Muslim world.(Christians just happen to be the largest non-Muslim group and it plays to a conservative American Christian audience) but the fact is that the ME used to be majority Christian what happened to these communities? Indonesia used to be majority Hindu and Buddhist. What happened there? What happened in Afghanistan/Pakistan and India? What happened in North Africa and in Turkey? What in the Balkans ? The fact is. I do smell a genocide a huge pile of anguished corpses.And not a single one but many , maybe it’s at our own peril that we ignore the lessons from history and embrace the enemy within certainly there does not appear to be much acceptance or knowledge in the Islamic world about their genocidal past, In fact a general ignorance of history is also present in the West when it comes to these regions and these histories many of which ancient.” We” in the ” West’ have long since recognized and come to terms with our past sins but in the Islamic world i feel no such self reflection or historical knowledge exists. This explains the resurgent ” fundamentalist” strain this drive towards what some Muslims see as this pure past where everything was good.But the funny thing is you can still find Muslims chanting about Kaybar so some historic knowledge of genocide exist but instead of being rejected it’s embraced.American citizens playing cowboys and Indians I wonder what Syrian children play among the ruins of the crusader castles.Certainly the Egyptian Mamluk leader, whats his name,exterminated and drove off the Latin populations of the Levant on a scale larger then the slaughter of the inhabitants of Jerusalem when captured by the Crusaders.This history is also largely unknown in “the West’ because we only teach our own histories not that of other peoples we are ” Eurocentric” in our academia and in our knowledge of history.It also explains why you see so much radicalisation of Muslims in Western universities. We do not teach proper Islamic history for them to become critical thinkers.No in fact we often tend to white wash Islamic history.
There’s so much bogus information being bandied about on this post that everyone should withdraw to their corners and do some fact checking. No wonder Newsweek still sells. No wonder people watch Fox. It’s really mind boggling.
Roland, I think you might be referring to Baibars and his slaughter of Christian civilians in the city of Antioch – which was taken PEACEFULLY when his forces entered the city, closed the gates behind them and proceeded to massacre every Christian inhabitant.
Saladin also had the same intentions for the Christians of Jerusalem. But the Christians learned his intentions and forced him to compromise. Instead, the Christians were required to pay a heavy tax and forcefully expelled. The poor Christians who could not afford the tax Saladin required were enslaved and sent to the markets of Syria.
@AbuBooBoo: It strikes me as incredibly inconsistent that you can throw about phrases like genocide, ethnic cleansing, and “jackboot of Islam”, glibly excusing it as a passing reference made at the end of your post, while simultaneously decrying that the term gets bandied about in leftist rags.
Sure: turnabout is fair play. But two wrongs don’t make a right. If the evidence does not support the accusation that there is an ongoing genocide against Christians– and, as the FAIR piece points out, the evidence does NOT support the accusation– then it doesn’t make your case any stronger to point out weaknesses in another case. Both you and the leftist rags could be wrong. And if you’re advocating for a lower burden of proof for your own charges of genocide because someone else is alleging genocide on weak evidence, well… it doesn’t work that way. Prove your accusations on your own evidence. And if the evidence justs shows discrimination and not genocide, then use the proper and accurate term.
This is my problem with Hirsi Ali’s writing. She takes incidences of violence blends it together with known disparate treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim countries and says that’s good enough to conclude genocide. I don’t find it convincing at all, but a lot of people will buy into this unsupported narrative and it won’t end well for anybody. Ali goes further by alleging that the media is covering up this obvious genocide in the name of not appearing Islamophobic. So the pump is primed for anybody who buys her line of BS to shout down the deniers by pointing out that there’s no evidence of anything because the media is suppressing it. How very convenient.
And, sorry, but I ain’t buying that you don’t buy the hyperbole of genocide against Christians. You come accross as true believer.
Okay its not genocide. It’s only genocide when Christians “persecute” Muslims. How many “Christian” countries are burning down Mosques en mass, killing Muslims and forcing them to flee en mass? How many Christians are being threatened with death for converting to Islam because conversion is a crime against Christian doctrine? What is the word for criticizing Christianity–Christianaphobia? There IS no word. Everyone has and SHOULD have the right to criticize ANY religion without fear of retribution.
and, as the FAIR piece points out, the evidence does NOT support the accusation
We’ll disagree here. I didn’t see the FAIR article dispute what is evident in the Muslim world.
The case in Iraq is an interesting point.
The article says “millions” of Iraqis have fled Iraq. I believe that number is around 2 million. Of those 2 million are 500,000 Christians. Their flight from Iraq is disproportionately higher than the general Iraqi population by many fold.
Again, Hirsi’s exact words are “rising genocide”. Rising genocide is often anteceded by what we see in Iraq and the Christian population. So her term seems on the mark for me. “Rising genocide” indeed.
@Eduardo: Ever hear of Bosnia or Chechnya?
@AbuBooBoo: The central thesis of this FAIR comment is that Ali Hirsi is putting forth awfully unpersuasive evidence of a genocide against Christians. I don’t see how you coulda missed it.
I’ll give ya that what is evident in much of the Islamic world is discrimination and sometimes violence against non-Muslims (and even against differing Muslim sects). That’s wrong and it oughta change. But it doesn’t mean it’s genocide or a war on Christians. And it sure as heck doesn’t mean that the media has ignored it all– there’s a whole Wikipedia page on Christian persecution for cryin’ out loud.
If genocides are heralded by the kinds of things Ali Hirsi cites, could they not also be preceded by things like the police surveillance of peaceful and law-abiding religious groups? Or what about religious book-burnings? How about marked increases in individual violent crime against members of that religious minority? All three of those things (and more) have happened in the US against Muslims within the last 5 years. Is the US started down the path toward genocide? Absolutely not, in my opinion. But it differs from what’s happening in the Muslim world only by a matter of degree. If the Muslim world is on the path towards Christian genocide, then I think the western world oughta take a good look at itself: we just might be, or end up on, the same path.
I don’t think there’s anything similar in degree to private book burning and some highlighted examples of injustice in the Muslim world.
One is a personal freedom issue and the other is often infringing on the freedom of another.
For instance, I would have no problem if Muslims burn Talmuds or American and Israeli flags. It’s free speech. As long as they own the flags and Talmuds they’re entitled to do what they want with them. I might even sell them the lighters if I wanted to make some quick cash.
The other issues are spotty. Is increased police surveillance in the United States really qualitatively similar to discriminatory laws in some Muslim nations? We certainly have the checks and balances We have our Constitution. And, obviously, the actual reasons for police surveillance are wholly different even if you believe them misguided.
Police surveillance will be transient and is a function of perceived militancy in the Muslim community. To me, that’s a qualitative difference from monitoring Muslims because Muslims are forbidden from proselytizing and the authorities have the power to roll up on any Muslim for breaking the law by preaching. Most would agree that laws focusing on Muslims because Muslims are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as posing a certain risk to the community is not the same as singling Muslims out for religiously based discriminatory laws.
I would also disagree with your comment that hate crimes are just a difference by degree. But I’m sure you would agree that the system works against the victims (such as Ahmadis or Christians) in Indonesia or Pakistan or Egypt but typically works for the victim in Western society. There, attacks become both qualitatively and quantitatively different.
AbuBooBoo wrote: I don’t think there’s anything similar in degree to private book burning and some highlighted examples of injustice in the Muslim world.
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They don’t have to be similar in order to be steps along the path toward genocide do they?
I’m sure there’s lots of private hate speech in Muslim countries about Jews, Christians, rival sects, and probably the west in general. Does that get dismissed just as easily? Don’t ideas of genocide and ethnic cleansing and the like usually get started with speech? Nobody goes out and just starts killing– ideas get put forth to rouse a population to violent action; that’s one historical genocide template.
“Police surveillance will be transient and is a function of perceived militancy in the Muslim community.” And why exactly should we take your word for this? When you start looking at a subset of the population as being dangerous because of their religious beliefs, it’s a short walk to open hatred in my opinion. And from there, a hop skip and jump to the kinds of injustice you decry in the Muslim world. Those that want to push the people down that dangerous path can point to the fact that the government indeed thinks these people are dangerous as evidenced by the police surveillance.
My point is that if you and Ali Hirsi are right and these injustices are a rising tide of genocide, then we need to make sure we ain’t swimming in the same tide but in shallower water. I prefer to see them as simple injustices without making the unsupported leap that they’re part of a war on Christians or a genocide. The injustices are wrong– sometimes horribly and tragically wrong in the case of mob violence and death– but they’re not signs of anything more horrible. I’m not prepared to jump to that conclusion without stronger evidence. Likewise, I’m not prepared to condemn the US’s or the west’s wrongs against the Islamic world as a precusor to genocide or as anything more than what they appear to be.
They don’t have to be similar in order to be steps along the path toward genocide do they?
I have no idea how one could qualify that burning one’s own private property – a Koran – leads to the path toward genocide as someone might say a mob or individual burning a church would.
Is dumping a crucifix in a jar of urine and having the government pay for your handiwork also one step along the path toward genocide?
But you seem to be comparing individuals burning privately owned Korans to the types of vigilante activity that infringe on the rights of religious minorities in some Muslim (or non-Muslim) nations.
I don’t think expressions of free speech by individual citizens can ever be compared – nor are they steps toward genocide – to denying someone else their rights *OR* the government burning Korans or whatever the case may be.
Don’t ideas of genocide and ethnic cleansing and the like usually get started with speech?
I think it’s lack of tolerating your opponent’s right to free speech that gets genocide started. I can’t imagine a genocide being able to take root in an environment where free speech is exercised freely for all people involved.
And from there, a hop skip and jump to the kinds of injustice you decry in the Muslim world. Those that want to push the people down that dangerous path can point to the fact that the government indeed thinks these people are dangerous as evidenced by the police surveillance.
Well, no. It’s not really a hop, skip and jump away from the Muslim world.
It’s a different type of issue altogether. Christians are “targeted” for belief where Muslims are “targeted” for action. I’m not saying one is worse than the other; I’m saying the two are simply different.
Laws against church building won’t go away on their own unless they’re repealed or not enforced. Christian behavior in society is also irrelevant. If Christians are absolute angels in their community the law will still prevent them from building churches.
There’s nothing to guarantee that Muslims will continuously be under surveillance for all times unless there’s an actual law stating that Muslims must always be under surveillance. Could Muslims be put under surveillance indefinitely? Sure. But it’s a transient issue as far as I’m concerned. I’ve no more reason to believe Muslims will be under indefinite surveillance than they won’t if the law is not obliged to put them under indefinite surveillance.
Btw, aren’t those saying someone can’t have free speech more on the same continuum as the people who would engage in genocide?
How can you tell me that denying speech you don’t agree with wouldn’t also be on the path toward genocide?
You want free speech stifled and so do those who are genocidal minded.
Difference by degree.
Maybe I’m not explaining this clearly enough…
No, I do not think that free speech that I don’t agree with should be stifled. Even free speech that’s designed to whip up anti-Muslim sentiment. Even free speech that could be twisted to incite a mob to violence. But the (possibly) resulting injustices, insults, violence, and tragedies born by that that free speech are, to me, not that much different and not that much better than the discrimination against non-Muslims and violence that happens in many Muslim countries– the very discrimination that Hirsi Ali and you feel convinced is evidence of a rising genocide. I don’t think the Muslim world’s treatment of non-Muslims or our unwarranted police surveillance or Koran burning or any other anti-Muslim manifestation is anything to be celebrated. But
You take the labels off and all you have left is human beings!
Human beings doing messed up things to other human beings. ..What ever happened to the “do unto others as you would have done to you” that Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about (or the Good Samaritan story where Jesus commands ‘followers’ to love your “enemy” as you love yourself?)
Put yourself in the shoes of a human being born and raised in a muslim family and then muslim problems are much easier to relate to and understand, than it is for us other humans constantly reminded to fear muslims, as our American society is conditioned to do through our bullhorn corporate media (which Newsweek is a part of).
What I find intolerable is that, under the twin guise of “Christianity/national security” America is killing and oppressing so many brown skinned people in so many countries, and then now, after all the trauma some victims have gone through at the hands of the U.S. military, Newspeak accuses those very victims of conspiring genocide against “Christians”?
Whoa, hold on a moment!!!
Just reverse the roles:
Just have all Americans be blamed for a terrorist event (like 9/11), and to have all the experiences that Iraq and Afghanistan have under U.S. military occupation, have all that exact same war trauma be experienced by Americans instead, inside their own country…and we will ALL go “oh my god! This is what we put those people through?”
Nevermind that an ardent financial supporter of Hitler gets a son and a grandson in the White House -for a total of 20 years if you count Bush Sr’s vice presidency (how’s that for an insult to Americans killed in World War II -eh?). And Hitler, remember, demonized the Jews for a very long time, staged terrorist events which he blamed his enemies for, allowing him to remove all civil liberties and slowly condition the population to fear and hate jewish people and to accept his dictatorship as better than democracy -entrusting the “chief” more than democracy… sound familiar?
All through out its history the U.S. government has lied, but this time the U.S. govt really is telling the truth about 9/11? looking out for our best interests and protecting us from terrorist muslims, who are all really bad people who are all out to destroy America? And that is NOT a conspiracy theory? Yet anyone who doesn’t believe the government’s “national security” excuse is, by definition, a conspiracy theorist?
Geesh!!!
The bigger the lie, the more likely it is to be believed -and with hate propoganda (like Newsweeks latest) still being taken seriously, American humans are the shining example of that.
Hit submit comment on accident…
But these things, are to me, not any kind of rising genocide. They’re just examples of problems within our society and theirs. Problems. Not evidence of genocide.
You don’t see the issue with police surveillance of a religious group? I doubt the Muslim world feels the same the way. In fact, I’ll bet they see the problems I bring up as roughly equivalent to the discrimination and sometime violence against non-Muslims that is seen in their countries. But something tells me you can simply dismiss those concerns as unreasonable. They’re being completely unreasonable complaining about unwarranted police surveillance, violence directed toward them, etc. But heaven forbid anyone think that anti-Christian discrimination in Muslims countries is anything other than evidence of a rising genocide. Throw on top of that we seem intent on whitewashing everything Israel does and the US might start to look concerning to the Muslim world. Probably about as concerning as these Muslims countries look to you.
You can’t imagine a genocide
Oops again.
You can’t imagine a genocide in an enviroment where free speech is exercised freely for all people involved? Well, unfortunately, you don’t need to imagine one. You can look at history. The US treatment of Native Americans happened by and large while the 1st Amendment was in effect. Anybody who wanted to coulda spoke freely against their forced resettlement and broken treaties– and some did.
Well, I’m gonna have to say I agree with the author. It’s about time someone said it. Genocide IS happening towards Christians and it’s being ignored consistently. It’s not just America that’s bashed Christianity time and time again. Countries like Iraq and even India are innocently murdering Christians just because they ARE Christians! Don’t believe me? Look it up. In the state of Orissa, a state with high reports of Christian persecution, Christians are being threatened and slaughtered by the thousands just because they believe in Christ. They use brute force to threaten them into converting back to their previous religion, be it Hinduism, Islam or whichever religion they used to adhere to. I saw a clip once in that SAME STATE where the police just stood there watching as extremists mercilessly beat Indian Christians with boards and rocks. It was dehumanizing. Atrocities like that shouldn’t happen in a country with a supposed “secular” government. This needs to rise in the conscience of developed countries, we shouldn’t stand for this!
@johanna: I looked up the Wikipedia page on “religious violence in Orissa.” My mental tally of people killed is less than 100. Now is my math way off or is your claim that “Christians are being slaughtered by the thousands” an exaggeration?
Don’t get me wrong: one death is too many. And the far greater number of displaced persons due to rioting is an absolute tragedy as well. But atrocities against a religous group does not automatically mean that genocide is afoot. And given that the Indian government has at least made some interventions– in the form of increased security forces at one point and prosecutions of criminals– I’d say that genocide is far from an apt characterization. Certainly, the government response is not great and it’s nothing that would be tolerated in more-developed nation; but it’s not turning a blind eye either.
I have no problem with anyone raising flags and complaining about the Orissa incidents or any other incidents of persecution; it’s certainly justified. But do so using appropriate terms, please– and genocide is not an appropriate term.
[quote]You don’t see the issue with police surveillance of a religious group?[/quote]
Yes, I do see the issue. Your point was that we’re swimming in the shallower end of the same pool as certain Islamic/Muslim majority nations. I’m saying we’re in entirely different pools.
There are no police surveillance laws that specifically target Muslims. There are no laws in existence intended to slowly wipe out Islam. Laws that have the intention of eliminating Christianity – through prohibitions on church building, proselytizing, conversions, open display of religion, marriage and inheritance restrictions, etc, not only target a religious group but are actually intended to reduce that religious group’s numbers.
You seem to be arguing that police surveillance of Muslims (over issues of security) in the US is wrong. Fine. I have no problem with that belief. But I disagree that police procedures in the US are qualitatively similar to laws in the Muslim world where Christians are not only singled out – regardless of circumstance – but were formulated to extinguish Christianity.
It’s the difference between police officers who racially profile Black drivers to pull Blacks over to a law that bans Blacks from driving and fines/imprisons Blacks when caught driving; regardless of committing any traffic violations.
AbuBooBoo wrote: It’s the difference between police officers who racially profile Black drivers to pull Blacks over to a law that bans Blacks from driving and fines/imprisons Blacks when caught driving; regardless of committing any traffic violations.
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Both of these things are very wrong. To me, that puts us– arguably, anyway– in the shallow end of the pool and not in a different one.
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“There are no police surveillance laws that specifically target Muslims. There are no laws in existence intended to slowly wipe out Islam. Laws that have the intention of eliminating Christianity â┚¬“ through prohibitions on church building, proselytizing, conversions, open display of religion, marriage and inheritance restrictions, etc, not only target a religious group but are actually intended to reduce that religious group’s numbers.”
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You don’t need laws that specifically target Muslims in order to discriminate against them. It took decades after Brown v. Board of Education to stop racial segregation despite the fact that the segretory laws were no longer on the books.
I don’t see the discrimination against non-Muslims, even if it’s intended to keep their numbers low, as genocide. It’s discrimination and it’s wrong, but it’s not genocide. There’s no systematic and widespread program of killing that’s the usual hallmark of genocide. We have laws to control the number of immigrants into the US. That doesn’t mean we’re engaging in genocide against immigrants.
Both of these things are very wrong. To me, that puts us– arguably, anyway– in the shallow end of the pool and not in a different one.
We’ll disagree that laws designed to discriminate against a group of people aren’t qualitatively different from the practices of law enforcement that do not have official legal sanction. I think most normal people will agree with me as well.
A law prohibiting blacks from driving is different from racial profiling procedures used to pull blacks over looking for reasons to possibly fine/arrest blacks (driving w/out license/insurance and so on) in the minds of most people.
The two aren’t differences in magnitude. They are categorically different.
You don’t need laws that specifically target Muslims in order to discriminate against them. It took decades after Brown v. Board of Education to stop racial segregation despite the fact that the segretory laws were no longer on the books.
So the example you’re citing was the failure to uphold a new law where an old law that did specifically target a group of people was illegally being enforced?
“Segretory law” *targeting* Group X for discrimination makes your comparison invalid with anything I’m saying.
One qualitative difference is that police procedures do not target or discriminate against Muslims. Racial profiling black drivers does not prevent Black drivers from driving. Black drivers are disproportionately targeted but the practice does not obligate officers to pull over Black drivers. Black drivers are also not discriminated in the sense that as drivers they have fewer rights than non-Black drivers. They can only be ticketed for the same violations that apply to all other drivers.
Reading all these posts brings to mind what an amazing country we live in.On my very street I have 4 ex marines out of six homes(strange gathering of jar heads we call it).All are republicans.All white.And all very successful.About a year ago a muslim family moved in down the road.I believe the father is a dentist.The girls are covered head to toe with only their eyes showing.Often they the girls take walks with the children.They are always greeted with a good morning or afternoon by everyone I know and it is always returned.We do have prejudices here in this country against muslims,and 911 made it no better.And Jews and blacks have their share.Gays,Mexicans and all the rest of us.It is a work in progress. But damn comparatively we are doing something… a lot of things right.
AbuBooBoo wrote: So the example you’re citing was the failure to uphold a new law where an old law that did specifically target a group of people was illegally being enforced? “Segretory law” *targeting* Group X for discrimination makes your comparison invalid with anything I’m saying.
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Thanks goodness the Supreme Court didn’t follow this reasoning.
John, I don’t know what more to explain to you. The Supreme Court comment was kind out of left field. I think again this is about apples and oranges when you see it as ten apples and one apple.
Most people see a qualitative difference between a law that says Blacks can’t drive and racial profiling Black drivers (but even that is a bad analogy to police surveillance of Muslims because racial profiling means officers must at least pull Black drivers over for it to be racial profiling). They would agree that both are wrong but they are qualitatively different. I figure if you are as critical with your own reasoning as you are with Ayaan Hirsi’s article you would see this too.
@AbuBooBoo: Had the Supreme Court followed your reasoning, then de facto segregation would still be in place. Nobody would be able to point to discriminatory laws on the books. So things ain’t so bad then, right? There’s a qualitative difference between discriminatory laws on the books and other discrimination, right? Never mind the absolutely drastic real world situation. No reason to adress the fact that, for some magical reason, school districts and the schools within them somehow ended up almost completely segregated.
That’s what you seem to be saying: our discrimination ain’t so bad, but those Muslim countries got a problem so bad that it’s genocide. I’m saying that we both got problems, but they’re just problems– not any evidence of genocide. And if we’re gonna overblow their problems to the point we call them genocide, then we really oughta look more critically at our own problems because they ain’t all that significantly different; from the Muslim world’s point of view, they could very well see us doing things that aren’t all that much different than what we call genocide when the shoe is on the other foot.
I don’t go so far as to say glass houses or anything. I think we have an incredible level of freedom and tolerance that a lot of the rest of the world doesn’t enjoy. But it ain’t perfect. And when we like to cry anti-Christian genocide when the facts ain’t there to support it, while at the same time invading Islamic countries, whitewashing everything Israel does, etc., then it’s gonna look pretty disingenuous to the other side of the fight.
Had the Supreme Court followed your reasoning, then de facto segregation would still be in place. Nobody would be able to point to discriminatory laws on the books. So things ain’t so bad then, right?
Once again John, please try to stay on topic. If the practice (or law) is discriminatory that WOULD make it qualitatively similar to what’s occurring in the Muslim world. Yes, I mentioned a difference between law and practice but these were all in the context that the law was inherently different to the practice.
That’s why your example is irrelevant because we had been discussing a police practice that wasn’t inherently discriminatory to laws in Muslim nations that are inherently discriminatory. Hence my entire point that they are qualitatively different.
There’s a qualitative difference between discriminatory laws on the books and other discrimination, right?
No, John. There’s a qualitative difference between non-discriminatory practices and discriminatory laws. There is a qualitative similarity between discriminatory practices and discriminatory laws. That’s why I said my analogy of racial profiling was not a great example because there is a discriminatory component to pulling over drivers who are black, but it’s still qualitatively different from a law prohibiting blacks from driving.
That’s what you seem to be saying: our discrimination ain’t so bad, but those Muslim countries got a problem so bad that it’s genocide.
No one has said that John. I hate when people cannot bother to read someone’s comment.
they ain’t all that significantly different; from the Muslim world’s point of view, they could very well see us doing things that aren’t all that much different than what we call genocide when the shoe is on the other foot.
I’d like to see any qualitative similarity to the laws in Iran against Christians to any laws or practices in the United States affecting Muslims. So far there’s police surveillance. This was done in secrecy so I’m doubtful Muslims have been discriminated in their daily lives by police surveillance.
And when we like to cry anti-Christian genocide when the facts ain’t there to support it, while at the same time invading Islamic countries, whitewashing everything Israel does, etc., then it’s gonna look pretty disingenuous to the other side of the fight.
Who is “we”? You mean Westerners who are not you? Most probably right-wingers?
I suppose that’s an interesting observation. To me, it seems, the Right has recently taken up the issues they expected the Left to concern themselves with – religious persecution, fundamentalism, intolerance.
The Left is diplomatically silent to religious persecution in the Muslim world, despite their pedigree of being “internationalists”.
This thread is a perfect example. The article was an attack on Hirsi Ali. Christian suffering in the Muslim world was only mentioned on this site because Ali wrote of it. It was forced. The author had to choose from not mentioning Hirsi’s article and ignoring Hirsi to attacking Hirsi. Unfortunately for the author, attacking Hiris and her article meant that he had to post the contents of Hirsi’s article.
I would be surprised if one article by a Leftist writer on this site was devoted to Christian or non-Muslim persecution in Muslim lands. I’m not a frequent reader of this site by any means, but I would assume there have been numerous articles on “Islamophobia”, not only in the the United States, but also in foreign places such as Europe and Israel.
And if a Left wing, Muslim apologist writer had claimed the West was committing genocide in the Muslim world, as Danios from LoonWatch has recently done, we wouldn’t see any type of reaction from Leftist writers indignant over the hyperbole by some sections on their own side.
The Left doesn’t care about human rights. The Left only masquerades behind human rights when they can use the human rights issue to bash the side they hate. It’s so thinly disguised these days when the current Leftist industry not only silently tolerates persecution but now engages in deciding which Muslims are “real”, “fake” and “self-hating” by how well Muslims tote the Leftist party line.
And when we like to cry anti-Christian genocide
John, where is Fair.org when the Left and Muslims routinely accuse the West and Israel of anti-Muslim genocide?
I think the real question we should be asking is why the Hirsi article made the waves it did in the Leftist community.
Sorry John, but I don’t think the Left is as impartial as you’d like others to believe.
I guess its okay to murder Christians since it (supposedly) doesn’t rise to the level of genocide. What a brilliant analysis.
@AbuBooBoo Says:
February 19th, 2012 at 10:10 am
Yes indeed it was the Mamluk sultan Baibars he’s actually the big historical Islamic hero in the Middle East.More famous and legendary then Saladin.It’s only in Western Europe that Saladin became romanticized into this noble pagan ruler.In the Middle East he was not recognized as such until he got resurrected by Arab nationalists after the Ottoman empire was defeated in WW1 and the Europeans started to rule the area again which is even more odd considering he was a Kurd and not a Arab.It was here that Saladin was ” rediscovered” the same is true btw of the word Crusade/Crusader there was no such word in Arabic until the early 20th century and is basically a Western concept introduced into the Arab world.The people at the time did not see the world in these terms.Nether did the Crusaders fight Islam for they did not know enough about each other.To the 10-13th century Arab he was fighting Frankish barbarian invaders.For the 10-13th century European Crusader he was fighting a demonic pagan race of Christ killers.They are described as such by the first pope to call a crusade.Which shows the lack of knowledge in Western Europe about who or what they were actually fighting. The term Saracin originated with 6th century writings of St.John of Damascus (another great Christian city that somehow today has few to no Christians left) this is the source for the term in Christendom.His writings are still mighty interesting to read if you want to get a historical glimpse of early Islamic culture and religious practices. As St.John was a bit of a polemicist and Islam as a religion wasn’t as theologically formed as we know it today in fact he saw it as a Christian heretical sect.
But I’m going off topic in a huge way, it wasn’t just the slaughter at Antioch but the whole ethnic cleansing of Latin Christians from the Levant region the European presence basically ended after Baibars conquests.
Lawerenc – Can you enlighten us which religion initiated WW I and WW II which resulted in the death of over 105 million people – which religion was behind Stalin murderous goons which killed over 65 million Russian and Ukrainian Christians including three million Muslims?
It was western racism and nationalism which caused all those Holocausts.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/poll-european-hatred-toward-israel-jews-and-muslims-is-up/
look at the group allegedly a non-for-profit organization called CAIR, that is in the process of stopping any sovereign state into submission when that sovereign state passes laws and or amendments to their state constitutions (as did Oklahoma) these states are trying to ban the use of sharia law in the State Criminal and Civil Courts.
Hell us Jews cannot even use the Jewish law of Talmud in the secular courts in the US so why does child molesting muslims get to use their sharia law
IT IS BECAUSE THE AMERICANS ARE RUNNING SCARED OF THE ISLAM CHILD MOLESTERS YEAH I SAID THAT, CHILD MOLESTERS
It was western racism and nationalism which caused all those Holocausts.
Hey Rehmat, where’d you get that “Talmudic” quote?
Was it from a neo-Nazi or Muslim supremacist site?
Come one, fess up.
Btw, some credit Japan’s invasion of China as the start of WWII and I’m not sure how the Soviet Union’s atrocities are linked to “racism” and “nationalism”.
AbuBooBoo – Wake up and listen to a Jew who turned his gun against his fellow Jews and Israel after disgusted with their racism and nationalism.
â┚¬Ã…“Israel is not an occupation. It’s the ethnic-cleansings of the native Palestinians,â┚¬Ã‚ Miko Peled, son of Israeli Gen. Matti Peled and brother of Professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan. Miko Peled is a former Israeli soldier. Last year Miko gave an interview to the Alternate Focus describing his experiences as a young soldier in the Jewish army. He also describes a confrontation with the same army on a recent visit to Israel and the West Bank. Watch the video below.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/israel-as-seen-by-an-israeli-generals-son/
Sen. Dick Durbin has claimed there’s a war against Muslims.
Where’s the outrage from Leftist raps such as this one?
None?
Our war is with those who would distort it and turn it into terrorism. And I think that was a bright spot kind of a guiding principle. It was adopted by President Obama. Now, listen to these Republican candidates for president. They’re at war with Islam.â┚¬Ã‚Â
So there’s a war against Islam. Will Left wing smear merchants challenge Durbin on such a “serious charge”?
Hi all,
I am part of an international church, and our brothers and sisters who live in the Middle East verify that this, is in fact, the situation. Many have endured horrible things simply for their faith and virtually all fear for their lives daily. At first I don’t understand why some people instantly assume it isn’t true; but, then I realize why.
Wow, I can’t believe all the hatred. All I can say is, I wish the entire world knew Jesus Christ. He is Lord. He died for our sins, and He rose from the dead. No one makes pilgrimages to his tomb because he’s not buried there! He ascended into heaven and will one day return as triumphant Lord and King. He has not retired, He has not moved over for another prophet who happened to come along 600 years after Him. No, He declared Himself as reigning King forever and ever. All who claim to replace Him are blasphemously false. So grind your teeth all you want. He’s not moving over, and He’s not going away. Go ahead and kill Christians. They will be in heaven forever with their wonderful Jesus who loved them so much that He gave His life for them. Beautiful Jesus, always giving and sacrificing, never living by the sword and teaching hatred and inspiring murder. He’s the perfect example for how humanity should treat each other — love, respect, sacrifice. He claims to be the only way to eternal life and the only dispenser of ultimate truth. Christians of the world, be encouraged. Soon Jesus will come back on the clouds of heaven and deliver you. And the rest of you — repent and turn to him before you die without salvation and land in hell for all eternity. God loves you very much and has provided faith in His Son as your way of escape from death and entrance into eternal life. Meanwhile, like I say, Christians will be murdered. That’s true martydom, not people who blow up themselves so they can murder others. They aren’t martyrs. They are dead killers. But true martyrs are mentioned in the Holy Bible:
“9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” . . .
A promise for the Christian victims of this world:
16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Book of Revelation 6:9-17, 7:16-17).
And the final words of the Bible:
12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
(Book of Revelation 22:12-21).
Jesus wrote this hundreds of years before the supposed “prophet” was born. He will never abdicate his authority to another. He will have the final say in history. He is the judge, before whom all will be raised and give account. But today He extends a loving invitation for all who want eternal life in heaven to come. It’s up to you. The end is very soon. Accept salvation today. Christ will change your heart, and you will no longer be filled with hatred and contempt but the love of God.
Most will be enraged by this message, but does anyone have the guts and the integrity to listen and at least go to the Bible and search for truth. The Bible promises concerning the truth, “Seek and you shall find.” The truth remains hidden only to those who refuse it.
Gerry, if all that you say is true about your own history, you must be what, 80ish years old? Hmm… I don’t know many folks that age who are reading blogs, let alone writing lengthy diatribes in response. I’m not saying that you’re not 80ish and writing to bloggers, but I’d love to get some more info. on that from you.
You who want to talk about red herrings, please also acknowledge that you are committing a fallacy yourself:
Ad hominem and tu quoque
Definitions: Like the appeal to authority and ad populum fallacies, the ad hominem (“against the person”) and tu quoque (“you, too!”) fallacies focus our attention on people rather than on arguments or evidence. In both of these arguments, the conclusion is usually “You shouldn’t believe So-and-So’s argument.” The reason for not believing So-and-So is that So-and-So is either a bad person (ad hominem) or a hypocrite (tu quoque). In an ad hominem argument, the arguer attacks his or her opponent instead of the opponent’s argument.
(from UNC’s http://writingcenter.unc.edu/resources/handouts-demos/writing-the-paper/fallacies#section-11)
But if you want additional resources documenting the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries, go to the ACLJ’s website: http://aclj.org/ or to the Voice of the Martyrs website: http://www.persecution.com/
Peace to you.
The pertinent thing is whether people are being killed BECAUSE they are Christians or Muslims or secularists. That is genocide: an attempt to remove a group from society or from the gene pool through homicide.
I don’t know about Christians in Muslim world being targeted because they are Christians, but its certainly clear that women are being targeted because they are women. (Oh here we go, the predictable chorus cries, women’s lib, groan).
This level of misogyny, open, severe, unapologetic; legally, socially, religiously supported, cannot be equated with the deep-seated but largely suppressed misogyny occurring in the West. I know there are many of you who think racism is somehow worse than misogyny, but you are ignorant of the subject. Misogyny is compounded by racism, but it is no less destructive. A woman like Hirsi Ali, with her dark skin, knows far more about the prejudices involved than those criticising her. She is angry, and she has every right to be. Why aren’t you angry too? Because you haven’t suffered like she has.
I am a leftist, and I will judge everyone who can’t see fit to speak truthfully about the abuses of women under Islam: either because they don’t want to be called ‘racist’ or more likely because they just don’t care. I will also judge you if you criticize the abuse of women under Islam but not the misogyny legitimized by the foul tenets of the Christian church.
Hirsi Ali is a voice that comes from that world. You’d do better to listen to her without your arrogant presumptions that she’s coming from an anti-muslim agenda rather than a desire to reform terrible abuses SHE HAS SEEN that so many others have deemed somehow socially-acceptable because they fit the pre-ordained narrative of callous & ignorant men.
Well it’s sad to know that killing a human being now a days is not a big deal. That’s why terrorists are terrifying people. And also due to the lack of provision of justice, the terrorism is spreading in the world day by day.