New York Times critic Alessandra Stanley—whose work has been regularly featured in the paper’s Corrections box—doesn’t think much of WikiLeaks‘ Julian Assange’s new TV show, which debuted on the Russian-backed RT cable channel.
Stanley takes her shots—the channel has a “zesty anti-American slant,” she writes, then crudely notes: “A few correspondents can sound at times like Boris and Natasha of Rocky & Bullwinkle fame.” OK.
Stanley runs down the various controversies swirling around Assange, then presents his response: “Mr. Assange tells reporters that he is being persecuted for political reasons, which, even if true, doesn’t exactly help his case.” I’m not even sure how to make sense of that.
The part that jumped out at me, though, was this:
To some he was a hero, to others a spy, but nowadays he is most often portrayed as a nut job.
I guess that’s supposed to diminish Assange. But it tells me little about Julian Assange—and plenty about the corporate media.
The resort to an ad hominem argument is a tacit admission of the failure to make a cogent ad rem argument. A proposition is not true or false based on who made it but on the proposition’s correspondence with reality, independent of who made it.
So Assange asks why the Syria situation must be resolved immediately while the Israel and Palestine situation has endured for decades?
I ask why the threat to Syria’s government must be dealt with in non-violent means while the US is privileged to deal with less immediate threats to itself with far more extreme violence such as it used needlessly in Iraq? By what right (divine, maybe?) is the US privileged to intercede in Syria in the name of democracy, while efforts to disenfranchise US citizens continue?
I expect Alessandra Stanley’s criticisms of Assange next to extend to his mother’s wearing of army boots and her webbed feet.
I found the whole article confusing. It begins by noting that Anderson Cooper used his first show on CNN to interview Amy Winehouse, while Assange on RT had Nasrallah. You would think this would raise serious questions about why the former is so cynical and uninterested in significant journalism, in contrast to the latter, but no… And it ends by suggesting Assange might get the Kardashians?? Maybe instead he’ll continue to find guests who should be heard, but aren’t.
The mainstream media organs associated with Israel Hasbara Committee, like CNN, NYT, WSJ, FoxNews, WP, BBC, etc. do have a problem with Julian’s new talk show on RT. First of all – he selected a guest for his first episode who happens to be not only anti-Israel but whose group, Hizbullah, is the only militia in the Arab world which defeated the ‘Mighty’ Jewish army in the 34-day war in Summer 2006.
While the western media has highlighted Sheikh Nasrallah’s views on Syria – the interview in fact began with Julian’s question to Nasrallah – what he thought of Israel?
“The Palestinian land is the property of the Palestinian people. The passage of time does not turn the right into wrong. If the house was your property, and I occupied it by force, this doesn’t make it my property even after 50 or 100 years. Anyway this is our idealogical and legal opinion,”Âsaid Nasrallah.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/assange-interviews-hizbullah-leader-at-rt/
The thing that struck me most in Stanley’s diatribe is her double reference to RT as Moscow/Kremlin supported. But although the NYT is not financially supported by the U.S. government, as far as I know, its support OF the US government in any and all its aggressions in distant places is quite reliable, and a protective NYT attack on a US target like Saddam, Gaddafi, or Assange is completely assured. Government supporting for free is much more propaganda-efficient than government support.
Assange got a real scoop with that interview, but she wouldn’t know it. To compare getting to interview Nasrallah with the Kardashians just shows how truly ignorant and vapid was her article.
Anything with eyes and a pulse has to be anti-American. The latest in my experience are family restaurants being shut down in rural Iowa for employing illegals. Memories of Vichy France and the turning over of Jews. Loving your neighbor is against the law. Some freedom of religion!
I just wrote to the Times as I had felt offended when I read the April 19th edition with the sloppy piece on Assange. The other comment, besides “Nut Job” ,which bothered me was the assumption Assange had probably overstayed his welcome at the place he had resided for over 300 days. If you have facts fine, put them down, but please spare us the speculation. Interesting enough I had picked up the Times to see if I might want to subscribe. That piece told me , forget it.
Stanley’s hook is to adopt a snarky condescension pretending insider status, which she delivers with amused detachment.
Last Fall, she provided the NYTimes’s earliest analysis of Occupy Wall Street with the same coy disparagement.
On the plus side, she does provide her readers with information they would be unlikely to find in The Times otherwise.
Julian Assange and Bradley Manning for Nobel Peace Prize!
Hi: As a sort of side step to this, I just saw a DN special on the guy who was the in the NSA for 30+years as a high up tech type, who turned whistleblower… A referenced book by another NSA WB as well, “The Shadow Factory”. Quite an interesting show… its not that it really said anything I didn’t know as such (Was in I.T. myself for over 30+ years, both soft dev and hardware) , it was more of a ratification of what I already knew/suspected etc.. As I listened to the three guests, I could not help think of the HW movie, “Enemy Of The State”, Gene Hackman, Will Smith, etc.. the scary part was that this was NOT an HW movie but our current reality, and getting worse by the second…
When you have taken the burden of exposing the USA’s corruption, etc. along with the interlinked money interests of the MIC, pretty much anything can come from any direction and 99% of it has no creditability…
…..Bill
The corporate media is just part of the political whorehouse that has become the USSA.
The NYT is published by Zionist Jewish Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. The daily has the third largest circulation and is listed on Israel Hasbara Committee. Last year NYT published David Brooks’ Op-Ed claiming that the Occupy Wall Street movement is anti-Jewish. He blamed Canadian magazine Adbusters, for starting the movement based on magazine’s 2004 essay, “Why Won’t Anyone Say They Are Jewish?“. The magazine had published an investigative reoprt that identified some of the most influential Jews and their nefarious grip on policy. If there is a core theme to Occupy Wall Street movement, it is that the virtuous 99 percent of society is being cheated by the richest and greediest 1 percent….
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/is-occupy-wall-street-movement-anti-jewish/
Assage is not the nut-job, America’s citizenry are the nut-jobs %99.9.
Americans are the “nut jobs” having been brainwashed by TV, and having acquired a taste for untrue manure they can no longer handle the truth.
Assage is the bearer of “sweet truth” that Americans can no longer understand; I know beyond a shadow of doubt because I am trying to expose “many” corrupt government officials covering up such issues as a $2 million arson investigations and a major counterfeiting ring devastating to the US economy, and for 17 years my information has been suppressed by TV, news papers and personal contacts, using every excuse imaginable by these cowards, the damages continues.
Several years ago and before government took-over GM, I informed GM’s board of directors and their legal department, that they were committing a major felony of conflict of interest, and no one there or in government (more than 600 contacts) would engage me even though I had time dated documentation back and forth.
Americans are afraid of the realities of truth, and prefer the dream-world of lies; lies require no commitments and are entertaining while truth compels one to use their head for something other than a hat rack.
Deny our country isn’t in trouble because we have consumed too may lies and rejected too many truths; deny it and then tell me our country got into trouble because of truths.
The blinders will be removed from America’s citizenry immediately after it is too late!
There are plenty of Christian nutzoids (“Big” Dick Cheney, among others) who wildly, unconditionally, mindlessly support Israel, Rehmat. Their “grip on policy” isn’t bad because they’re Jewish; it’s because they’re paranoid, mis-informed, and likely racist. Their Jewishness isn’t a problem. It makes it far easier for chumps like Brooks and Daniel Pipes to freak out and label everybody from Glenn Greenwald to the entire staff at FAIR blog to Barack Obama as anti-Semitic tools for the terrorists. And, check out Glenn Greenwald’s excellent post about the Assange teevee show over at Salon, where he addresses Ms. Stanley’s befuddled critique in his usual fine way.
If Americans weren’t already so conditioned to accept whatever the MSM dishes out — that is, if we all had our sanity and our wits about us yet — it might be possible for a real grassroots revolt to begin.
Our media (including the Internet) is like some sort of addictive candy that keeps our attention distracted from the truth. So long as these “pushers” are able to keep the public dependent on their nonsense, and there is no reality check on the media, we will have a thoroughly-sedated public willing to believe anything these mishandlers claim.
It would help if we had an honest media alternative. May I suggest The Real News Network at therealnews.com ?
Even if someone is completely exonerated of some supposed misstep or action, the taint will linger on. That’s why some “defendents” choose to settle out of court. They realize that even the truth may not be enough to change the minds of a public already determined and programmed to believe a lie.
> Assange asks why the Syria situation must be resolved immediately
> while the Israel and Palestine situation has endured for decades?
This is easy, Iran & Syria is part of the Israel/Palestine problems since
they support the terrorism. Solve the problem of where the support
comes from and the Israel/Palestine problem becomes simpler.
Palestinians do not make peace because their leaders make money
in the war business and I find it very sad that some people will attack
the American military industrial complex with all they have and miss
the military terrorist complex that is the agitating side of the Israel
issue, the fact that they want to destroy Israel.
> he selected a guest for his first episode who happens to be not
> only anti-Israel but whose group, Hizbullah, is the only militia
> in the Arab world which defeated the ‘Mighty’ Jewish army in
> the 34-day war in Summer 2006.
Spin, spin, spin … Hezbollah did not “defeat” the mighty Jewish
army. The slurs in the statement alone would tell one that.
Hezbollah succeeded in digging in so deep that to destroy them
would be unacceptable in terms of civilian losses, but you would
never say that, because it would mean the next time you get a
chance to the “jew state” for killing civilians it might be inconsistent.
FAIR really does a good job on a lot of investitgative reporting,
but the bottom line here is that the whole reason for their
existence is to sneak their under the scope propaganda torpedos
about Israel which really bothers me.
Liberals and progressives should be neutral or agnostic about
the Arab/Israel conflict, or be on the side of democracy and
freedom, yet somehow here and on Pacifica and some other
Liberal outlets we always get anti-Israeli stories and virtually
nothing critical of Israel’s enemies.
Personally, I’ve just opted to stop reading anything from the lamestream. The fraction of an ounce of good journalism that I might receive for having to sift through pounds of unadulterated B.S. is just not worth the assault on the integrity and consistency of my mental processes. I willfully choose to be ignorant of this obsequious, sycophantic, propagandist B.S. Hats off to those that are forced to endure this rubbish in an attempt to lay bare it’s underlying motives (which are the antitheses of true journalism) for all to see, whilst also minimizing social damage.
Who is Amy Winehouse?
No Difference says:
> If Americans weren’t already so conditioned to accept whatever
> the MSM dishes out — that is, if we all had our sanity and our
> wits about us yet — it might be possible for a real grassroots
> revolt to begin.
That would be nice … a nice fantasy, but without the mainstream
media I don’t know if people would know what to think or what
to believe in. I don’t really mean that as a dig to regular people,
give them the facts and they usually find a good answer if they have
the time and resources to ask questions and talk to others.
However, no matter what our media system is the deliberation
part is problematic because most people do not have the time or
interest to study problems so deeply and they do not get how
things interact with their lives. And with more economic stress
on people that trend is getting worse.
So, all my life I have resisted the monolithic state concept, but now
I realize or think I realize that it is necessary, and that in many cases
there are good reasons the media pushes the reality it does – not that
it is always right, but hey – we are humans, there is no way we can
always be right or avoid making mistakes.
So, the military state that we have, that was hatched in response to
two world wars, and a global conflict of political systems is there for
a reason. It is not perfect, it costs too much, it makes mistakes, but
it goes mean that we do not get pushed around … at least it used to
until corporations realized that the American peolpe are just another
indigenous population in the way of their wills and resources.
This I believe is the crux of the problem and the solution will come from
recognizing it and making compromises between a “social” state and a
“political” state giving each its due and letting each work without constant
arguments, bickering or revolutions.
That means defining the rights of people, Americans, but while we are
at it … why not extend these rights to all people globally and entice
them into a good system instead of always blowing people and things
up. of course there will always be malcontents, and any compromise
means that both sides are unhappy to some degree, but the world cannot
keep going as it is without destroying the common planet that everything
is based on.
If Daniel Elsberg published The Pentagon Papers today, he would be treated exactly as Bradley Manning. He would be imprisoned in solitary confinement without trial for a year or two, stripped naked, and most likely executed or put away for life. President Obama has gone after whistleblowers more aggressively than all his predecessors.
If we manage to save the planet from climate change and pollution, Assange will become a folk hero someday. That will happen when a critical mass has been formed of enough people who really get the fact that the mega-rich are ruling the planet, that the politicians are their minions, and the press and pundits are there to pull Machiavellian tricks in order to distract us from that little inconvenient fact. That will be the day when the word “democracy” will live up to its true meaning (the rule of the people) and not the one corporate plutocrats have seduced us to believe.
@Richard and FreeSpirit – excellent posts. Couldn’t agree more with both of you.
@NoDifference – RNN is a great source for independent and accurate news. And there are actually many others: Daily Kos, Democracy Now, TruthOut, AlterNet, TPM, Think Progress, ProPublica, Salon, Public Citizen, Raw Story, etc.
The problem is only a very small portion of Americans know they exist because the MSM sure as hell isn’t going to call attention to them… or calls attention to them in a negative way. For example, Bill O’Reilly’s pathetic attempts to discredit the media watchdogs (e.g. Media Matters, FAIR, FactCheck, Politifact) by vilifying them simply because they call out Fox’s BS. And his attempts to discredit the independent news sources (Daily KOS is a favorite of his) for having the “nerve” to report actual facts, are equally as pathetic.
The solution is to make more and more people aware of these alternative news sources.
@Brux – “here and on Pacifica and some other Liberal outlets we always get anti-Israeli stories and virtually nothing critical of Israel’s enemies.”
Criticism of Israel’s enemies is the MSM’s job; a goal they exceed daily.
I think it says a lot about the American media that Assange, who has important and pressing things to reveal that the American public should know in order to make informed choices, has a show on RT and no outlet in American (or Australian) media.
Why not do a show on what he does best?Hack into computers .Receive pilfered pictures and information.Intercept cell phone transmissions.Maybe even hire some “plumbers”to break into the Republican AND the Democratic national headquarters.Hire spies in the us Military and state dept to supply him with info.And then just release it all on the air(Hey anybody know if that is illegal?).He can come on after the Kardashians.We can call it “Candid Camera hard core”
.But interviews on some backwater Russian TV show?Now THAT he has zero experience in.Let a man do what he does best I always say.We love ya Jullian.Hey how are those sex charges going for you?Do an interview with a warden that will explain what life will be like for you if found guilty.I’ll watch that.
michael e – please stop pretending to know what you’re talking about. It’s embarrassing (or should be). Assange and Wikileaks do not hack computers or intercept phone transmissions. They merely provide a venue for the hackers and interceptors to post their findings. Then, they send the findings to several media outlets to analyze, factcheck and report to the public.
Word of advice: Do some research before spouting your blatantly misinformed nonsense.
Who has forgotten how NY Times reporter Judith Miller unscrupulously sold the myth (from curve ball and Dick Cheney) that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction to help the Bush administration lie us into a war that we are still paying for in blood and tax dollars? When it comes to spreading myths and deceptions, this crap by Stanley gives Miller a run for her money . Of course to know Stanley is not necessarily to love her. Perhaps this little tidbit best describes her.
http://gawker.com/5327926/when-alessandra-stanley-falls-off-the-corrections-wagon-she-hits-the-ground-hard
Meanwhile the largest members of the corporate media(though the NY Times is not included)
(http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/meet_the_media_companies_lobbying_against_transparency_20120420/)
are working overtime to fight transparency when it comes to the now unlimited political spending that makes them hundreds of millions of dollars by airing and printing (mostly nasty and negative) political ads. This of course came to fruition by the recent Supreme Court decision (Citizens United) that makes corporations(including foreign ones) the only “people” with a voice when it comes to American politics. And they call Assange a nut case???
Assange is a truth teller. For that reason alone he must be demonized. But look whose demonizing him? The prolific Alessandra Stanley. All I can say about her is poor Walter Cronkite(she made several goofs in that article), poor Doctor King(got his birthday wrong) and yes even poor Academy Awards, which Stanley compared to an AARP meeting.(Poor old folks too?)
Actually TD -I DO know what Im talking about.Julian first came to fame, or should we say the authorities eyes, when he was caught, and tried(pleaded guilty)to hacking into computers.Of course I was being sarcastic much of the time but truthfully he has no care where the information comes from ,or how legally/illegally it was obtained.As long as he has plausible deniability to its acquisition.And he feels it strikes at those things that are a bur in his saddle….he dumps the info without regard.He is the porn king of the pilfered intelligence game.Speaking of porn……another angle you may find connections with.How are those sex charges going?
To Michael shaw
Mike there are a lot of fine upstanding people investigating ,and gleaning facts that uncover the wrongs done by people, and governments.We need such people to do that which will give the fullest reality to the freedoms built into our constitution ,and our press in this country,and the hopes and dreams of freedom loving people in other lands.Good people who risk sanction, and worse -to tell the truth as they know it.Honorable people .Juliane Assange just is not one of them.Dont throw you hat to deeply into his corner.
michael e – The argument is not about what Assange did in his past. My argument is that Assange does NOT do the hacking for Wikileaks. Nice attempt to reframe the debate, though.
The alleged (and highly questionable) “sex scandal” is just a ruse to get him extradited to the US so we can convict and sentence him for the Wikileaks data dump last year. Such grasping at straws is just more evidence of our desperation.
So, you admit (to Michael Shaw) that you support “good and honorable” whistleblowers because of their courage to risk sanction or worse to get out the truth. So, tell me… in your mind, what is the difference between those people and Assange… or Manning… or Ellsberg?
@Carol: Seriously? Amy Winehouse is a recently deceased pop singer. She died of an overdose, I believe. Now, that’s news for the MSM. Assange is interested in real news, and he scooped every news organization in the world with the Wiki. He’s the real deal, and that’s why twits like Ms. Stanley hate his guts. His first show, and he absolutely upstages them all. Again. As a poster above notes, the US wants desperately to get Assange into our gulag system so that perhaps some “enhanced interrogation techniques” can be used. Assange, in fact, broke no laws. That won’t stop the Adnministration from going after him, though. Isn’t it interesting that right-wing trolls and pols are 100 percent down with the President on Assange’s “guilt?” It’s the authoritarian mindset–present in Mr. Obama and his screeching detractors.
Whistle blower to me relates to a person who has personal information that shows illegality.He feels it is his duty to reveal this information for the good of others.He does not TRAFFIC in purloined and pilfered intelligence information.Creating a business to this effect is much closer to spying.But whistle blower or spy ..both must meet the standards of the law.And both must face the consequences for their actions. Assange should face his accusers in the sex case.And answer to the legality of his actions in wicki leaks.You play you pay.
michael e- That’s interesting. You do realize your first sentence perfectly describes Bradley Manning, right?
Assange is not a whisteblower himself. He simply provides the logistics FOR the whistleblowers (like Manning) to disseminate their information. It’s perfectly legal.
Td understand when I say “has information himself” I am not speaking about a man who has access to information –that he is able to steal.There is a line one crosses.To STEAL from your employer to prove your belief is still wrong ,and must be prosecuted….even if you are proven right.Thats the chance and the risk you run.We have had spies who stole nuclear secrets and valuable military technology not for money…. but because they thought it would be better for the world.Does that make it right?Because they believed America “deserved” to loose that leg up in the arms race.Assange is a scum.He is like Osama letting his minions take the heat.An army of people with all kinds 0f motives for pilfering info and funneling it to him.As far as being perfectly legal…..WE SHALL SEE.If Assange ever stands up to the bar that is.
Dear Brux,
Whether you like it or not, Hizbollah DID defeat the Israeli army. I don’t think there’s much evidence that the Israelis want to spare civilian lives, so this “reason” for withdrawing is bogus. Just remember Israel killed at least 1,400 Lebanese civilians, and remember the Gaza massacre. Please…
Well Laila
If any Arab “army” or faction actually did defeat the Israeli army there would not be a Jew standing in Israel.That said………Israel has had the upper hand militarily including the bomb- for any number of years.Yet they have left quite a few of their enemies standing.To say they do not spare civilian lives is idiocy.To say that if the armies and terrorist factions had triumphed , there would be few jews left in that spit of sand ,is the plain truth.One side is fighting off attackers(and yes causing innocent deaths).The other is fighting, attempting the annihilation of a people and a nation.Innocent deaths have no meaning for them.As no one is innocent…. who is a jew!
michael e, your last comment, to the effect that Arabs are genocidal racists, is straight-up racist. You are a fucking bigot.
The standard Palestinian demands, for years, have been equal rights within Israel and the right of return. Some have even abandoned the latter in favor of a viable second state. You can’t have gone through life without knowing this, so I have to conclude you’re also simply a liar.
Save the Oocytes
Arab PEOPLE of the countries(as well as Persian and others) in the middle east- may or may not follow the idea that the jews should be driven into the sea.But certainly their governments, and leaderships since before WW2 have been in agreement that that is a pretty good idea.You say genocide.I did not.I believe if Arab factions had won any of the wars that Israel would be devoid of Jews.How that would be accomplished is up to speculation.Deportation…extermination ,or just immigration away from an untenable position.I do not offer that answer.The chance of being allowed to live in peace together in Palestine with victorious Arab factions is laughable.We see how well jews do living in the lands of her neighbors.
Equal rights within Israel?That is what you believe is the extent of Palestinian demands upon Israel.Come on- be serious.And what does that even mean come to think of it?Does Russia demand equal rights within America?You actually want a hostile faction…a political entity…….A voting block as it were that “yesterday” was detonating bombs in school buses to be given equal voting rights as the Israelis?Im a little stunned at that thought process.Obviously a second state is the answer if answer there be.Of course the Arab countries that now reside on 87% of traditional Palestinian lands should anti up as well(why is that not even on the back burner i wonder?).Or even first- as Israel sits on a only a small portion.Hell israel itself IS a small portion.A spit of land you can fly over in minutes.I am not a racist in any sense.I am also not a fool.Neither are Israelis.You say we come in peace with a thin lipped smile and a lead glove behind your back sir.
PS”innocent deaths have no meaning for them”……..Those words anger you?How about these……I remember well Palestinians celebrating in the street on 911 as israelis wept with us.TELL ME that did not happen.EXPLAIN it away.Maybe I should of said “for far to long innocent deaths of jews and Americans have GREAT meaning within some middle eastern countries”The meaning being A CELEBRATION OF JOY, AND ECSTASY at a great victory.
No, *American Indians* demand equal rights within the US, and they deserve them. That is the incredibly obvious analogy you are somehow missing. And if there were more descendents of indigenous people than of colonizers, and they were very angry about their years of repression, and some of them had committed terrorists acts over the years, even hundreds of them, they would *still* deserve equal rights.
Independent of what you believe were the motivations of the leaders of Arab armies in the past, at present Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt have had de facto peace agreements with Israel going on forever, and Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Iran pose no real threat. This is a pretty crappy argument that any number of murdered civilians is okay to protect Israel.
“A voting block as it were that ‘yesterday’ was detonating bombs in school buses to be given equal voting rights as the Israelis?”
That is what citizenship means in “democracies” other than Israel, sorry.
Yes, all Palestinians held a forum, where they each individually agreed to bomb school buses, because all Palestinians are terrorists. And that is why there are no buses or schoolchildren left in Israel.
Your argument seems to be that Palestinians’ actual motivations are oppressing Jews, therefore whatever Israel does is justified. This is approximately the same as saying that a bank robber has the right to shoot at the cops if he determines the cops mean him harm. The idea that it’s justifiable to maintain majority rule by denying your political opponents full rights is something that should be inimical to the “Western” democratic tradition I’m sure you’d like to claim you represent. Whites somehow survive in modern South Africa despite the end of apartheid. The same can happen elsewhere.
Your determination that the demands for citizenship and equal rights are in fact demands for Jewish mass emigration are a projection of your own hatred and the backward notion that all Jews ever and always must persecute or be persecuted.
“We see how well jews do living in the lands of her neighbors.”
The mass migration happened *after* Israel’s founding and as an unfair reaction to Israel’s existence and policies. Before that, Jews in the Arab world fared much better than they did in Europe. Israel doesn’t provide Jews necessary protection, it helps make them hated. And it’s now less safe to be a Jew in Israel than anywhere else.
“Of course the Arab countries that now reside on 87% of traditional Palestinian lands should anti up as well(why is that not even on the back burner i wonder?).”
What in the hell are you talking about? You do realize that Mandate Palestine is a different piece of land than the entire Middle East, right? Are you trying to bring up the old canard that Jordan is Palestinian, so why don’t the Palestinians all live there and stop whining?
“I remember well Palestinians celebrating in the street on 911 as israelis wept with us.”
There’s no good reason to cheer over the deaths of American civilians, and yet people in many countries did, primarily because they hate US foreign policy. Despite the fact that it had nothing to do with the military, lots of people worldwide were pleased with the notion that America had finally gotten what was coming with it. It’s the same notion that makes people like you cheer on Cast Lead.
And so you extrapolate, from one celebration in a street somewhere, surrounded by a sea of silence, that “they” are all bloodthirsty savages, implacable enemies of the American people, whom we should hate. This incident is enough for you to condemn all of them. This is a racist mindset, whether you like the word or not.
“You say we come in peace with a thin lipped smile and a lead glove behind your back sir.”
You nailed me, I want to drive all Jews (relatives included) into the sea.
I have to say that if the basis for all your beliefs and advice is the peace and prosperity of Jews in Israel( Boy I don’t believe that)- that my feeling is the jewish people, and her leadership are going to see you as at best deluded, and at worst …….
To answer some questions.87% of historical Palestinian lands are in Arab countries.(8 to 13% is in greater Israel debatedly.)There are no plans to return any of it by any Arab countries.We all Know of Israel’s trading land for peace only to be promptly attacked from that land.Arabs have never considered returning any of their lands to the Palestinian people..
You must understand Israel is the jewish state.She need not open her country to anyone .Certainly not past invaders or terrorist factions.Not Political factions that she can not come to agreement with.There is no obligation to that.She is a sovereign country.Not at the point of a pen or gun.
So Jews did well in Arab lands before the state of Israel did they?Are you completely unaware of Hitlers minions in many Arab countries helping him with his “jewish plans”.As he lay trapped in his bunker his Generals asked him to leave up till the last minutes..Even to try to make it to Argentina or arab lands.Countries where he would be welcomed.So I imagined Palestinian partying in the streets on 911?And Israel imagined the endless attacks?Or by now should just get over it huh?You have interesting skills in the diplomatic arena.Did your great great grandfather by any chance work as an advisor for Neville Chamberlain?
And stop with the Native Americans 2nd class citizen crap.One of my best buds is a full blooded native American.Raised on a reservation.He is a corp lawyer now.Educated at Harvard.Just bought a 3 million dollar home in Conn.He is not at war with this country on behalf of his people.And I am not guilty ,or accountable to Native Americans that suffered 250 years ago.Or Vikings driven from settlements 700 years ago.Or to blacks enslaved 300 years ago.Or to Irish,Chinese,or Jewish bigotry in the early 1900s.If they choose to be a part of this country and its constitution then they will be Americans just as I am.The demands of citizenship and immigration of Palestinians into greater Israel are not a hope for inclusion.It is a hope for a two nation state WITHIN greater Israel as well as without.Like a worm in the apple it is not the best template for a free Jewish state.You seem to be advocating that Israel do what YOU consider as the right thing even if it is the worst thing for them.You also seem to believe that if Israel did as you ask they would have their own Arab spring of peace and prosperity.GOD FORBID!Lastly your absolute belief in Israeli(and American)atrocities is beyond the pale.It reminds me of the endless lies in the Arab press along these lines.Israel does not target civilians for death.Or even better put,she does not seek the deaths of innocents.America does not either.Very different from our enemies who do.In fact that is their main concept of attack.Imagine 1500 missiles per year fired into your country.After a time Israel responds as they did 7 weeks ago firing at 4 men launching missiles from a rooftop.In the house were 7 “innocent”people who were also killed.Arab papers failed to mention anything but the so called innocents.You pick up the ball and yell atrocity.Sorry….it does not fly.I once saw a rebuttle of 20 so called atrocities trumpeted by the Arab world concerning Israel at the institute for middle eastern studies..An Israeli envoy explained the Israeli side often revealing before unreleased material.Amazing.It was so clear that disinformation is flying all over the place.Interesting how much ends up at the doorstep of Jews.Interesting yes.Some things never change.So don’t throw the word around as if it is gospel.
I actually expect you to say in a soothing voice to Israelis…No one ever has wanted to hurt you.Anyone who tells you differently are lying.Everyone loves you.No need to even have an army.Its all in your imagination.Go to sleep.Sleeeeeeeep Poppies poppies.
No one should have to tolerate reading the unformatted text you produce. Please use the return key and use it to make paragraphs. Also hit the space bar after every time you hit a period. It’s not hard. If that is the only information I am able to impart to you, at least it will be something.
You should do some reading, of someone you don’t agree with. You argue like someone who’s not even aware there’s another side. The “older posts” along the left-hand side at Lawrence of Cyberia, for instance, should give you some idea of what the pro-Palestinian position looks like.
This will be my last comment on this thread; I don’t have the patience for you. I think you are beyond help at this point.
“I have to say that if the basis for all your beliefs and advice is the peace and prosperity of Jews in Israel”
I actually care about people other than Jews too. That may be at the root of your failure to understand me.
“the jewish people, and her leadership are going to see you as at best deluded”
Not all Jewish people think the same, as it turns out, and the minority isn’t necessarily wrong. The whole “keep on colonizing occupied land and stealing water forever, don’t make actual concessions, starve the population of Gaza, and don’t grant your Palestinian citizens equal rights” approach doesn’t seem to have brought peace, but the government seems to prefer it.
“To answer some questions.87% of historical Palestinian lands are in Arab countries.”
This is just a repetition of what you said before, with no backing support or new information. I can only imagine that you are claiming that all of what is now Jordan is Palestine in some sense. This was not true even in name after 1921, but is irrelevant anyway. It’s as if you were to suggest a foreign were justified in expelling most of the population of Massachusetts because Maine, historically a part of Massachusetts, remained in US control. It’s no justification and certainly comfort to the people who were formerly living there.
“We all Know of Israel’s trading land for peace only to be promptly attacked from that land.”
First of all, Israel isn’t trading away land for peace, it’s constantly colonizing more of the West Bank, in contravention of international law. During times of ceasefire and not, it doesn’t matter.
Secondly, ceding land you’ve conquered, occupied, or colonized isn’t some magnanimous gesture, it’s just right, and incidentally, also law.
Third, if you’re talking about the 2006 war, that took place eight months after the withdrawal from Gaza, not exactly “promptly,” after the beach explosion.
If you just mean the rockets, they never stopped. The idea that the “new” land was specifically used for rocket attacks is overreach on your part.
Finally, the withdrawal from Gaza wasn’t really part of a “land for peace” gesture at all. Take it from Dov Weisglass. Sharon himself told Yedioth Ahronoth the withdrawal should be seen as a “punishment and not a reward.” So anyone who thought they had a reason to lob rockets before had no reason to think differently afterward. As is always necessary to specify, I’m not defending the rockets.
“Are you completely unaware of Hitlers minions in many Arab countries helping him with his ‘jewish plans’.”
Oh, this again. The Mufti of Jerusalem’s grand contribution to Nazism was help to recruit about eight hundred Muslim soldiers to the local fascist armies in the Balkans. You would have done better to talk about the jizya or something.
“So I imagined Palestinian partying in the streets on 911?”
You saw one celebration in Jerusalem, replayed on television over and over, and decided that all Palestinians wanted to murder every single American, because that’s the kind of person you are.
“And Israel imagined the endless attacks?”
(As if the Palestinians haven’t suffered endless attacks and suffered in much greater numbers.)
Did I say there weren’t lots of attacks? Do I really have to answer this? No number of terrorist attacks makes collective punishment acceptable or removes the rights of the people as a whole. You can’t see this because you blame every Palestinian for anything that any Palestinian has ever done and don’t believe they ever had any rights to begin with.
“Did your great great grandfather by any chance work as an advisor for Neville Chamberlain?”
No, my great-grandfather was murdered in a gas chamber because someone decided that he and all people like him didn’t have any rights. And my grandfather was a captain in the Air Force in Europe during and after World War II.
It’s interesting that you equate the people who were ethnically cleansed with the Nazis. I guess anything done by anyone claiming to speak for Jews became permissible after the war.
“And stop with the Native Americans 2nd class citizen crap.”
I didn’t say anything about them having second-class citizenship or being at war with the US, I said that the Palestinians’ demand for equal rights in their own homeland is equivalent to the generally accepted demand that American Indians should have equal rights in the US.
Congratulations on your successful Indian friend. In general, life on a reservation remains a living horror. The life expectancy statistics are abysmal. I’m sure you find that to be their own fault.
“And I am not guilty ,or accountable”
Yes, there’s nothing wrong with reaping the benefits of massive crimes against humanity so long as you didn’t commit them yourself. Well played.
“Lastly your absolute belief in Israeli(and American)atrocities is beyond the pale.”
No, it’s normal in all but about two countries in the world. Israel commits atrocities. It starves a population for no reason (look at the food import list). It kills mostly civilians in its wars. It’s an atrocity to bomb civilians whether you aim just at them or you aim nearby and just don’t care if they die. That is what the words mean. It doesn’t get any better if you were targeting some person in the general area. You still killed them.
“Imagine 1500 missiles per year fired into your country.”
It must be terrifying to live in Sderot or Ashkelon. I’m sure I’d be panicked and desperate to make it stop. It’s too bad Israel broke the ceasefire on election day in 2008 and precipitated Cast Lead, for instance. The ceasefire must have been nice.
And yet the number of people killed or maim by the rockets every year is orders of magnitude below the number of Palestinians killed. Since you seem to consider the Qassams an atrocity, one would think it would also follow that the artillery shells launched back (which are much more deadly) would also be an atrocity, an even greater one, but somehow it doesn’t bother you.
“The demands of citizenship and immigration of Palestinians into greater Israel are not a hope for inclusion.It is a hope for a two nation state WITHIN greater Israel as well as without.”
“Greater Israel”? You’re one of those messianic expansionist nutjobs who believes God gifted the Jews ever-greater parcels of land?
I have no idea what you mean about “without,” but as far as “within,” yes, both nations having equal rights is the general idea behind the term “binational state.”
“Like a worm in the apple it is not the best template for a free Jewish state.”
Did you just referred to them as worms? Christ.
You either don’t understand or don’t care about the problem with the idea of a “Jewish state.” It doesn’t work the way Norway is a Christian state or Iran is an Islamic state, it guarantees Jews land rights, property rights, marriage rights, and immigration rights, among others, that other people don’t have. The standard meaning of “Jewish state” enshrines ethnic/religious discrimination into law. There’s no reason for anyone to accept a “Jewish state” under this definition. Such a state isn’t truly “free” for minorities.
“You seem to be advocating that Israel do what YOU consider as the right thing even if it is the worst thing for them.”
It is you here who is saying it is the worst thing for them; that’s also subjective. Someone else might note that the US may not continue financing the Israeli military forever, that the population is declining and Jews are emigrating, and that Israel’s continuous violations of international law buy it much ill will, and might conclude the current situation is not tenable. Even if they only cared about Israel’s well-being and nothing else.
By the same logic you seem to advocate, someone who believed suicide bombing was the best thing for Palestinians shouldn’t be put off by the fact that it’s wrong.
In short, you are saying convenience should win out over morality.
“( Boy I don’t believe that)-”
You make vicious generalizations about entire groups of people, you can’t type or argue, and you don’t seem to know anything beyond what you’ve heard on television. Why should I care what you believe about me?
“An Israeli envoy explained the Israeli side often revealing before unreleased material.Amazing.”
You’re amazed that a paid propagandist for the Israeli government was good at presenting the Israeli side? I’m amazed at you.
The moral of this story is not that people lie for political advantage, but that you side with Israel unconditionally and you don’t want to believe atrocities happened, so you don’t. There’s nothing deeper to it, no principle or morality or even logic. You just pick a side to believe and say the other side lies. You’re so bound up in your hatred you can’t even admit the possibility that seven other people in a building were noncombatants. I don’t think anything could happen that you couldn’t explain away.
“I actually expect you to say in a soothing voice to Israelis…No one ever has wanted to hurt you.Anyone who tells you differently are lying.Everyone loves you.No need to even have an army.Its all in your imagination.Go to sleep.Sleeeeeeeep Poppies poppies.”
What Israel needs is to become a country of all its citizens like other countries, and to make restitution to the people it has dispossessed. …so of course you accuse me of wanting to kill all Israelis, because that’s just how limited your mind is.
And you are too stupid to pull off sarcasm correctly. You don’t deserve as much of my time as I’ve given you.
Well save the oocytes you just wrote(badly by the way)a long diatribe that amounts to little, except maybe saying you don’t really value allies anymore than you do our enemies.Restitution?????Some people believe Israel itself is restitution.That aside…where is the restitution for the wars launched against Israel?Every life.Every penny returned.Who will rise up the children killed in those bomb explosions?Missile attacks?Israel asks for no quarter from these animals.She does not parlay with terrorists.She drives them back and kills them.In that drive, as in any war ,innocents die.Yet no blame falls on anyone but Israel for you.You see everything from a perspective that Israel is the aggressor.Have you even gone there?It is an interesting experience to go to a fruit market on a Sunday morning with soldiers there to protect against terrorists.Now if they shoot a couple people …run across the boarder and shoot it out with IDF;you see the little girl hit by someones bullet as Israeli provocation.You right this is too stupid to go on with.I have read your spin.I cant find a salient point in the whole mess .And historically-you don’t know a damn thing it appears to me.Believe me if you were to sit down with Obama or Bush or Clinton as an advisor on middle east policy i think you would be great.Im just not sure what country you would be advising for.You do understand that none of them or Hilary would agree with many of your statements.You do see that right?And why do you think the people who have the complete picture…the complete intel would think you are a waste of breath?Just some under informed nut job?Oh I know……because they are owned by the jews right?Or is it the corporations?Skull n bones?Military industrial complex?At the end of every liberal self blaming rainbow is some hob goblin.Which one is it today?
ps you say a relative was killed in the gas chambers.So it may or may not be you are a jew?So little understanding of your own people.So magnanimous and understanding to the point of masochism of her enemies.What an interesting ,and (perennially) complex liberal dissociative mental syndrome this appears to be.