In the gun lobby’s arsenal of propaganda, the claim that guns make people safer may be the most potent.
After all, while gun advocates make grandiose—and historically inaccurate (Consortium News, 12/21/12)—claims about the Second Amendment being designed to enable armed citizens to resist government tyranny, no sane person believes individuals armed with handguns and rifles would stand a chance against a trillion-dollar 21st century military backed by vast surveillance systems.
But protecting one’s family, home or person? That seems sensible enough. If guns make us safer, as they say, then having a gun for self-defense isn’t an irrational choice.
The premise is regularly featured in news reports. This Week host George Stephanopoulos (ABC, 1/20/13) offered no challenge when former Republican Sen. Rick Santorum claimed, “There are more people who protect themselves and stop violence ...happen[ing] to them with the ownership of a gun than [there are] people who commit crimes with a gun.”
Fox News, of course, where gun ownership is practically a sacrament, has featured a virtual rhumba line of pro-gun guests touting the virtues of safety by gun. Hannity’s January 18 show might as well have been renamed the NRA Hour, featuring first NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre stating that the vast majority of the American public “deeply believes in the Second Amendment, deeply believes they have a right to protect themselves”—followed by former Rep. Asa Hutchinson, director of the NRA’s National School Shield Project, who told gun-toting host Sean Hannity that the solution to school shootings was “to have the armed, trained presence there to really protect the children.”
It’s not just conservatives and Fox pundits who embrace the self-defense argument. Discussing gun regulations on CBS’s Face the Nation (12/16/12), anchor Bob Schieffer endorsed the view that protection was a legitimate rationale for gun ownership: “By now, the pros and cons of the gun issue are well known.... Of course, there are legitimate reasons for both pleasure and protection to own guns.”
On January 9, CNN’s Anderson Cooper presented a segment that gave more or less equal weight to arguments for and against the notion that guns make us safer, concluding that it’s hard to say for sure:
The one true thing that we know about the gun debate here at home, that neither side has a monopoly on the truth, or even the facts, because the facts can be so hard to establish. One side has studies linking gun ownership with violent death. But correlation is not causation.
The other side has research showing when people are allowed to carry concealed weapons, violent crimes slow down. Yet newer studies cast doubt on that conclusion.
Studying the problem is hard, said Cooper, “with a shortage of facts but a surplus of victims and anguish and loss, the debate so far has evolved into passionately stated and exclusively competing articles of faith.”
But is it really hard to study the effects of guns on public health and safety? And is the debate merely between competing articles of faith? Perhaps more to the point, does the evidence support Schieffer’s and the others’ claims that guns are a rational choice for self-defense?
The pro-gun crowd sure wants you to think so, promoting studies over the years claiming guns are used defensively thousands of times per day and that broader gun ownership makes communities safer, and repeating anecdotes in which guns are reported to have thwarted crimes.
A favorite study of these advocates is 1995’s “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun” (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall/95), by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, which found that guns were used defensively about 2.5 million times annually in the U.S.—or almost 7,000 times a day.
Researcher John Lott conducted another study favored by gun advocates, published in his 1998 book More Guns, Less Crime, which claimed that increasing numbers of concealed carry permits in a given area are associated with decreasing crime rates.
Both studies have been convincingly challenged in the scientific community. In a 2004 meta-study of gun research, the National Research Council of the National Academies of Science found that Lott’s claims were not supported by his data. And when Lott misrepresented the report (New York Post, 12/29/04), the NAS published a letter (Deltoid, 1/26/05) listing his distor-tions. Shooting Down the More Guns Less Crime Hypothesis (11/02), a paper pub-lished by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found crime actually increased in states and locales where concealed carry laws had been adopted.
The Harvard School of Public Health’s David Hemenway took on Kleck in Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme Overestimates (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1997), demonstrating that because of the nature of the data, Kleck’s self-reported phone survey finding 2.5 million defensive uses of guns per year was wildly exaggerated. For example, Kleck says guns were used to defend against 845,000 burglaries in 1992, a year in which the National Crime Victimization Survey says there were fewer than 6 million burglaries.
Hemenway put together facts from the well-regarded NCVS—that someone was known to be home in just 22 percent of burglaries (1.3 million), and that fewer than half of U.S. households have firearms—and pointed out that Kleck “asks us to believe that burglary victims in gun-owning households use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.”
Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”
A National Crime Victimization Survey report, controlling for many of the methodological problems in Kleck, supported Hemenway, finding 65,000 defensive gun uses per year (NCVS Report, 1997). Current NCVS estimates are in the 100,000 range.
To assess the benefits and costs of pervasive gun ownership—there are currently 300 million firearms in the U.S., and roughly 80 million gun owners (CNSNews.com, 2/4/13)—it’s useful to compare the self-defense numbers to the gun crime numbers. The National Institute of Justice reported that in 2005, “11,346 persons were killed by firearm violence and 477,040 persons were victims of a crime committed with a firearm.” Or, to put it in starker terms, the FBI’s Crime in the United States report for 1998 found that for every instance that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 50 people lost their lives in handgun homicides.
With a gun murder rate about 20 times the average of other industrialized countries (Washington Post, 12/14/12), it’s hard to argue with Hemenway’s conclusion (Harvard Injury Control Research Center, “Homicide”): “Where there are more guns, there is more homicide.”
A New England Journal of Medicine study (10/7/93) in 1993 concluded that a gun in the home raised the chances someone in a family will be killed by nearly three times, with the danger to women—who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate or relative—even greater. A 1997 study in the Archives of Internal Medicine (4/14/97) reinforces that danger, finding that the homicide risk for women increased 3.4 times in a home with one or more guns. Taken together with the heightened risk of suicide and accidental deaths posed by guns in the home, these numbers demolish the argument that guns enhance family protection.
Much of the research on guns and public health dates back to the 1990s, it should be noted, because of the near total ban that Congress imposed on public funding for studies of guns and public health in 1996, singling out the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). “Scientific inquiry in this field has been systematically starved, and as a result almost no one does it,” University of California–Davis professor Garen Winte-mute told Huffington Post (1/10/13). The ban was driven by the NRA, whose anti-inquiry view is shared by gun researcher Lott; when conservative talkshow host Mark Levin (WABC, 1/16/13) asked Lott whether he wanted “the Centers for Disease Control to be delving into studying the gun issue,” Lott responded, “No, no, I don’t.”
In addition to underplaying the statistical case that guns are a destructive force in society, the media have largely ignored experts who can explain the practical reasons why guns are not necessarily a rational choice for self-defense. An exception was 20/20’s report, “If I Only Had a Gun” (ABC, 4/10/09), which explored the issue with firearms experts.
20/20 took a group of college students of varying familiarity with guns, and provided them with professional training exceeding the level required by most states for concealed carry permits. Then the producers recorded the students reacting to simulations in which an aggressive, active gunman entered a classroom. In every simulation, the student failed to stop the aggressor and was badly or fatally wounded; in one instance, the student narrowly missed shooting a victim of the assault.
According to the weapons experts 20/20 consulted, only professionals who drill continuously in live shooter situations can hope to succeed in such chaotic situations. Firearms instructor Glen Dorney told host Diane Sawyer, “Even police officers, through extensive training, if you don’t continue with your training, ongoing training, it’s a perishable skill. You’ll lose it.” When Sawyer asked him, “How long before you’re going to lose it, even at your level of training?” Dorney answered, “If you go for a month to two months without training, you lose it.” A Time feature (1/16/13) that looked at how unpredictably even well-trained police respond to crisis situations came to similar conclusions.
The debate over the wisdom of wholesale arming of citizens for the purpose of self-defense is not a debate between two sides arguing “articles of faith,” and there is no shortage of facts. The verdict has been in for years: Guns, as they are bought and sold and regulated in U.S. society, do far more harm than good. And if we had a media culture where public health actually mattered in discussions of guns, the argument that they are helpful for protection or self-defense would be relegated to the margins.








What about Vermont? There is very little limits on firearms there, it's where you don't need a license to open or concealed carry a weapon and 16 year olds can buy assault weapons, yet they have the lowest murder rate in the country, or second lowest next to Maine, one of those two :P
16 yr olds can't buy assault weapons.
@ Xanti, since you are a fan of statistics, Hawaii has the lowest murder rate of the 50 states. Next is a three-way tie among Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Here's another statistic: It took me three minutes to find that information on the web.
Death by firearms, of course, correlates to population density, which somehow you haven’t mentioned. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, Vermont ranks 31st of the 50 states in population density, with 67.73 inhabitants per square mile in 2011.
Most firearm deaths occur in crowded urban areas, and in a Census Bureau ranking of communities with more than 10,000 people per square mile, Vermont is 31st. The state’s largest urban area is someplace called Winooski, which has a mere 4,586 people per square mile.
If you google "world population" and click on the first entry, you will see a Wikipedia page with population projections for countries, continents and planet earth going out to 2025. Compare those exponential growth projections with the statistics on gun deaths by population density, and you will see that the United States will have to outlaw guns in private hands before much longer, despite the NRA's current control of the U.S. Congress and the media.
Roger,
You make the gun rights peoples' point for us. It is the urban areas that have the lowest rates of gun ownership yet the highest murder rates. New Hampshire has very loose gun laws & a murder rate lower than the UK. What we see is the most murders where there are fewer guns..
The article cherry picks data to make a false point. The US murder rate is below the world average. The countries with the highest murder rates have much more gun control &/or low rates of gun ownership. Honduras, Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Jamaica, Venezuela. There is no case for gun control.
Weak argument Roger. Poverty causes crime, not the lack of guns. It is true in Honduras, Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Jamaica, Venezuela, and America.
Darrenlobo, Poverty causes crime, not the lack of guns. It is true in Honduras, Brazil, Mexico, Jamaica, Venezuela, and America.
Actually, I think you might be doing the cherry picking. If you look at Wikipedia's list (I think you may already have pulled it up), you will notice that most all of the countries with higher homicide rates are third world countries. Exceptions? Mexico and South Africa. We know what the problem is there. You can't compare the effect of state regulations with those of a country, since our states have extremely porous borders. Ever been stopped at a Customs checkpoint at the Vermont border?
"United States will have to outlaw guns in private hands before much longer..." This statement sort of precludes the existence of the United States does it not?
The first rule of using statistics in an argument -- other than that they be accurate, of course -- is to make sure they are meaningful and appropriate to your argument. You have failed, big time.
Just to make sure we are not being biased here, let's use statistics from the Department of Justice, and more recently the Bureau of Crime Statistics, okay? Your government isn't going to lie on the side of "gun nuts", right? After all, it's this administration that wants to restrict guns.
So here are some statistics for you: per-capita crime in the United States, INCLUDING violent crime, which also includes gun deaths, is HALF of what it was 20 years ago. And it's far less than half of what it was 30 years ago. The drop in crime has been pretty steady now for decades. And guess what? If you take any 2-year average in that same period, mass shootings are significantly DOWN from what they were 20 years ago. And yes, even school shootings. DOWN, not up. Your own government's numbers show that very clearly.
You have to keep in mind that it is PER CAPITA crime (e.g., crimes per 100,000 people) that is relevant here, not total numbers. Even if the total numbers had gone up, so has the population. Crimes per person (which translates to your likelihood of being a victim) is the only meaningful measure here. Just so we are on the same page.
Yet during that entire time, while per-capita crime has been dropping like a rock, per-capita gun ownership has been going steadily UP! And not just that, but concealed carry has MUSHROOMED during that period. Check out this map of right-to-carry laws from 1986 to 2011:
http://s22.postimage.org/4gunnogu9/Right_To_Carry.gif
So if anybody is passing along misleading statistics, it is the anti-gun nuts. There are WAY more guns now (per-capita) than there were 30 or even 20 years ago. Yet there is WAY less crime today -- including stabbings, and rapes, and even shootings -- than 30 or even 20 years ago.
So twist the little figures around all you want. The big picture is still VERY CLEAR, from the government's own, non-twisted statistics: more guns do not cause more crime.
Using your same argument as stated with "stabbings and rape", guns don't reduce crime either.
Roger,
I almost forgot to add this: misleading statistics aside, here are 4 more things we know from the actual U.S. government statistics:
First, the areas in the United States with the strictest gun laws continue to be the areas with the highest crime rates... including gun crimes. I am not claiming a cause-effect relationship here, but other statistics suggest that there might be one.
Second, in areas where restrictive firearms laws are passed, crime rates have tended to rise. And not just in the United States! While you won't hear it from their governments, when Australia and the UK passed restrictive laws, their crime rates went UP! A lot. UK experienced a 40% INCREASE in firearms crime when handguns were banned, and Australia (if I remember correctly) experienced a 40% rise in armed burglary. I don't claim these links as authoritative sources, but I believe their numbers are correct:
UK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVAQOUi6ec
AU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tS0DGDf0I
The third thing we know is that (again in the U.S.), when firearms restrictions are lifted in an area, crime in that area tends to go DOWN. Case in point: when the Supreme Court stuck down the District of Columbia handgun ban, people went out and bought handguns. And guess what? Crime there went down and stayed down.
The fourth thing we know is that somewhere close to 90% of shootings in the United States are related to drugs and/or gangs: it isn't "regular" people shooting regular people, or drug dealers shooting regular people (there are bystander casualties, but they are few). It's drug dealers shooting other drug dealers. If you take those out of the picture, the per-capita rate of shootings and other firearms crime in the U.S., for "ordinary citizens", is close to 1/10 of the total nationwide rate.
The argument against Klecks numbers is bad science as it looks at two different reporting methods, phone surveys vs.FBI stats. You can't compare them and use the reason to argue that one is wrong because the numbers don't jive because they use two entirely different methodologies.
The FBI and police experts all agree that well over half of all burglaries and assaults go unreported. Thus FBI stats are known to under-report actual crimes. Scientists confirm this through the National Crime Victimization Survey through the Bureau of Justice Statics, part of the Department of Justice.
According to the DoJ, household thefts go unreported 67% of the time.
Thus arguing that Klecks numbers are bad because his number is larger than the FBI number is just junk science. The only way to test is for another scientist to go out and conduct the same phone surveys as Kleck. So far no one has been willing to do that.
Are guns used to defend life and property every day in the U.S. Yes they are. To see recent stories visit http://www.twitter.com/2ndRight
As far as Citizens standing up to their government, abuse is far more likely at the local level rather than Federal. Look up the Battle of Athens for more recent history, this one the 20th Century. Or the LA Riots where business and homeowners defended life and property most of the time without ever firing a shot.
The right of self defense is a long supported tenant of common law. It is a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment and many states also guarantee that right in their state constitutions.
The issue isn't gun legal ownership, it is illegal guns and criminals committing crimes with guns. Legislating guns because they have a pistol grip or a 15 round magazine or look like military-only arms does nothing to solve violent crime. The DOJ funded study completed in 2004 showed the Clinton Assault weapons ban did nothing to reduce violent crime.
Universal background checks only means legal gun owners get background checks. It does nothing to solve or reduce crime. Criminals don't buy guns from Gun Shows or Gun dealers. Less than 1% of all gun crimes came from a gun purchased or acquired legally.
If legislating and banning guns won't lower violent crime, what will?
I contend that Universal healthcare including mental healthcare will reduce violent crimes.
Every mass killer in the last 10 years had known mental health problems. Problems known by extended family members, healthcare professionals, teachers and school administrators. The problem was and still is, no one could or would do anything about it and those problems festered until they exploded in a tragic event where people were killed or injured.
Hawaii has the lowest murder rate, Hawaii also has universal healthcare including mental health services.
I love it when anti-gun types argue about one state or country having lower crime saying it is because they ban guns. Not true. If that was the case California, Chicago and D.C. would have significantly lower violent crime because they ban and limit gun ownership.
However, what is true is any state or country that does have lower violent crime rates also has universal healthcare and mental care.
I am a card-carrying Democrat, a gun owner, I voted for Obama twice and support Obamacare.
I believe the solution to making significant reductions in all forms of violence is universal healthcare, not universal background checks and piling more laws on to already law-abiding citizens.
"...no sane person believes individuals armed with handguns and rifles would stand a chance against a trillion-dollar 21st century military backed by vast surveillance systems."
Hmm, I guess that's why the US has done so well and worked so quickly in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Reluctantly, I have been prepared to accept that some persons - with a proven need for self-protection, a thorough background check, and rigorous training - should be able to defend their homes with firearms, while concomitantly every effort by the society was made to obviate that need.
But in light of the study showcased on "20/20", I have to reevaluate that view.
The odds of successfully defending oneself or others with a gun, versus the astronomically greater odds of tragedy occurring, has to lead any rational person to question whether there is any place for one, even under the most stringent conditions.
We have a right to protect ourselves and others
But that right isn't absolute as to the methods we may employ.
I still can't say definitively that no one under any circumstances should own a gun for self defense
But that would be with the proviso that it be the very definition of a last resort.
(The subject of "pleasure", including the slaughter of other species, will have to wait for another day.)
Doug,
I can find you an expert that will tell you man did not land on the moon. Doesn't mean we didn't land on the moon. The 20/20 expert was sharing his personal opinion, not science and research.
There is no research that says civilians with a gun are more likely to be injured during the commission of a crime, in fact the research is the opposite.
Data from the federal National Crime Victimization Survey found that individuals with guns are much less likely to be injured or suffer a loss during a robbery or assault.
Though 30.2 percent of all individuals involved in a robbery between 1992 and 2001 were injured, only 12.8 percent of victims possessing a firearm suffered an injury, according to a 2004 report by the Committee on Law and Justice.
"Tough Targets," a 2012 paper by the libertarian Cato Institute, highlighted hundreds of news reports nationwide where armed citizens thwarted criminals and determined that police departments underreport defensive gun uses because cases involving justifiable weapons use often are dropped.
There have already been hundreds and hundreds of cases of civilians using guns to defend themselves just in the first two months of 2013. In only one case, was a gun taken away from the victim and then used to kill him. The criminal was a 20 something healthy man with a baseball bat, the victim was elderly.
Yet there are over 30 other cases where a senior citizen was able to use a gun to successfully defend themselves and family members. Seniors are twice as likely to be victim of assault.
The criminals pray on the perceived weak and for some of those criminals, they chose their victim because they look frail and vulnerable only to learn later they had a firearm and were willing to use it to protect themselves.
To see stories from across the country about self defense with a firearm, many times without ever firing a shot, please visit http://www.twitter.com/2ndRight
Reluctant? DL: Although I have had thorough background checks (several) and have had 'rigorous' training, the concept of 'need' does not enter into the equation, either morally or contitutionally. Just as every citizen has the 'right' to defend their life from criminal activity, they also have the 'right' to use the means neccessary to do it.
I am also licenced to carry a gun on my person in 43 states. I can assure you that the laws involved when carrying on the street are much more 'rigorous' than for keeping a firearm in the home.
If you got your information from sources more credible than the anti-gun ramblings of the liberal mainstream media ("20/20") you would be much better armed with facts for the discussion. The statement: "The odds of successfully defending oneself or others with a gun, versus the astronomically greater odds of tragedy occurring, has to lead any rational person to question whether there is any place for one, even under the most stringent conditions" is totally bereft of truth and factual backing.
The truth is that:
* "Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(20) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.(21)"
* "Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.(22)"
* "As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.(23)"
I do agree with your 'allowance' that there may be circumstances under which law-abiding people people should be able to defend their own lives although I might ask you to name a single instance when that would not apply? I would agree with you wholeheartedly that the use of a firearm is a last resort but, of course, that is just my training speaking.
Sources:
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636
Doug,
Don't forget that the NRA was given an award for accurate reporting of statistics by the American Librarians' Association. While those on the other "side" of the argument... well... haven't been. I'll just leave it at that. I don't want anyone accusing me of name-calling.
Anne, could you provide a link to information on that award?
I found no American Librarians' Association or American Librarians Association, but did turn up the American Library Association, whose site has no mention of an award to the NRA.
Doug,
I believe that is the correct name. I read about it in the 90s, so you may not find references on the internet.
I believe it was an honorary James Madison Award from that ALA. On their website the ALA lists individual award winners (Aaron Swartz was just given their first posthumous award), but they don't list the honorary awards to organizations.
Anne, this may be what you're thinking of:
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/
In light of the past recipients of the award listed here, I think you may be mistaken in your recollection:
http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/govinfo/opengov/freedomofinfo/recipientsmadison
Anne, I called the ALA Washington office (1-800-941-8478), and the person I spoke to will get back to me about the question next week.
I'll pass along the result.
No, I could be wrong but I think it was a James Madison Award from the ALA. They do give honorary awards to organizations. There is a list of the individuals who have received the awards on the ALA website. There is a footnote stating that in some years organizations received it too, but it does not list those organizations.
I should also add that the ALA actually partnered with the NRA at one point for some kind of foundation work or contributions. I don't recall the details, but I ran across it on Google yesterday.
I'll ask about that as well.
Anne, I received a reply this morning from Jessica McGilvray, Assistant Director at the ALA:
"As far as I can ascertain, the ALA did not give an honorary James Madison award to the NRA. The Madison award is given to individuals or groups who have championed, protected and promoted public access to government information and the public's right to know. We have also found no record that the ALA partnered with the NRA."
(Apologies. I neglected to check the box for notification of follow ups.)
[...] while you’re during it, check out FAIR’s glorious story on gun assault (“The Self-Defense Self-Delusion“). It provides an glorious examination of systematic novel customarily left out of many of a [...]
2ndright, it's true that you can find an "expert" to attest to just about anything, but several were consulted for the 20/20 piece, and when it comes to such matters, I try to divine what they have to gain by making such assertions.
In this case, it would appear their self interest would lie in promoting firearms training as effective and worth the investment.
They don't, which leads me to think that they're simply relating their empirical experience. If you have evidence to the contrary, other experts who disagree, please provide that.
Of course, as just stated, they may have an vested interest in making their counter claims.
As regards the NCVS, both Rendall and you use its findings to support your varying conclusions. Can you post links to the original data you cite, so that we can evaluate it for ourselves?
As the song goes
Two men say they're Jesus
One of them must be wrong
And I've been reading newspapers for closing in on half a century, from the Clarion Ledger in Jackson, MS to the Commercial Appeal in Memphis to the Wisconsin State Journal out of Madison to the San Francisco Chronicle and Oakland Tribune.
Over those decades, I couldn't estimate how many items dealt with incidents of burglaries or violent crimes that are germane to the conversation there. It's what the term "countless" was created for.
Yet I haven't seen more than a handful (possibly missing a few digits) that related a successful defense using a weapon.
You might be right that many such crmes aren't reported, but wouldn't logic dictate that of those that are, and subsequently recounted in the media, a healthy percentage would cite such outcomes?
Where are you witnessing these reports?
I also would think that the NRA would be trotting out these folks at the drop of a hat, as it would be a salient reinforcement of their arguments
That isn't the reality, is it?
So I'm trying to put two and two together here
And as yet, I can't say you've shown me a four.
But I won't close the books until you've had an opportunity to square the accounts.
One last item that doesn't appear to add up
If the Second Amendment deals with the individual right to armed defense
Why wouldn't it read something along the lines of
"An effective defense of life and property being necessary to the security of the individual and his home
(And in that time, "his" would have been the exclusionary adjective employed)
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." ?
Now, I'm not an "expert"
But the whole "well regulated militia" thing doesn't seem to jibe with that interpretation.
Again, I'm not picking up foursies here.
Just exactly what 'empirical experience' in the use of firearms for self defense would you be referring to?
Care to hazard a guess?
Empirical: Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
Observation, the over 1,000 stories reported each year in the news media about self-defense with a gun. http://www.twitter.com/2ndRight
Research: Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment Journal of Quantitative Criminology
March 2000, Volume 16, Issue 1, pp 1-19 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1007588410221
Report from the Dept of Justice Statistics Defensive Gun Use 1994 indicated 82,000 annual defensive gun use (DGU)
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=946
I can't find the original source right now, but a 2010 report indicated over 100,000 DGU's annually.
2ndright, Rendall references the 100K figure
"A National Crime Victimization Survey report, controlling for many of the methodological problems in Kleck, supported Hemenway, finding 65,000 defensive gun uses per year (NCVS Report, 1997). Current NCVS estimates are in the 100,000 range."
He also adds context
"Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of 'self-defense'—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): 'Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.'
But regardless, there appears to be a discrepancy between what I've seen in the media and the actual frequency of successful weapons use. I think it was a logical assumption to make that the rareness of reported incidents in my experience indicated there there were relatively few of them in reality, but logic and reality don't always dovetail, do they?
So out that supposition goes, although I don't believe it vitiates the validity of my views on the issue, just as it doesn't contradict Rendall's contentions.
Effectively regulated, there may be a place in this society for gun ownership for the purpose of self defense
But that must be in the context of making every effort to confront our culture of violence, and those who promote it, and end the death and destruction that flows from it
And the easy availability of the means by which those tragedies are wrought.
Doug,
1. Data is from the National Crime Victimization Survey
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245
2. New Media reports about Self Defense and Guns can be found here
https://twitter.com/2ndright
3. The NRA has been publishing stories about self defense for over 40 years in an on-going column called the Armed Citizen.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogList.aspx?cid=25&id=21
and more info can be found here including 4100 media stories from 2003 to 2009
http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/9493/who-is-the-armed-citizen/
As you can see, 4,100 stories is far more than just a handful of stories in the media.
Finally a good source of facts and original source data can be found here. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
2ndright, I was asking for links to the specific NCVS data you're using, as Rendall is using the same source for contrasting conclusions.
Do you have those?
Even accepting your stat on stories, it posits that less than 700 mentions of armed self defense were made in the media annually during those six years, or less than two a day from around the country. How many items were there in that same period relating gun injuries or deaths through accident, suicide or homicide, with the victim having some relationship to the perpetrator?
How many news items on successful armed self defense have you personally read, heard of or seen from the original source - i.e., your local paper, radio and television outlets? How many have you witnessed dealing with the above tragic outcomes?
What are your criticisms of the studies Rendall cites from the Havard School of Public Health and the National Research Council, debunking the work of Lott, Kleck and Gertz?
The last source you list cites the Kleck study extensively, so if it is flawed, that would cause me to look askance at its use as a primary source for the information at the site.
And what do you specifically object to regarding the 20/20 testing?
From my point of view, at the end of the day, whatever benefit weapons may have is far outweighed by the harm their presence facilitates within a society defined by immaturity, aggression, prejudice and patriarchy.
I agree that the abhorrent state of mental health care in this nation is a main ingredient stirring that pot, but until that's rectified by a sea change in how we deal with that issue - and the ACA won't come close to doing so - it defies reason to have hundreds of millions of guns floating around in that toxic soup.
Again, if gun ownership is truly "well regulated" (that damnable Second Amendment again), there may be a place for it in the rarest of circumstances.
But I know, and I imagine you do as well, more than a few folks who should never have their finger on the trigger.
A nation that requires more training to drive a car than to own a gun is one the Vulcan in me finds highly illogical
And demonstrably dangerous.
You also might want to have a look at how that Just Facts page deals with issues such as climate change and health care, including Medicaid and the ACA.
http://www.justfacts.com
Doug, you wanted source documents and source data, and Just facts provides links to original source documents. You should judge the original source documents.
Your criticism that self defense stories don't appear in the media thus it doesn't happen very often is again bad science. The media is not the recorder of crime. The only national source for meaningful crime data is the FBI and DOJ. Yet they both freely admit that their stats cannot be used to measure the total crime in the country, merely what is reported to local police and agencies.
As I said before, the department of Justice says that household thefts go unreported 67% of the time.
Doug, just because you don't have first hand knowledge of guns being used in self defense or you didn't see it in your local paper doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Your initial statement was "Yet I haven't seen more than a handful (possibly missing a few digits) that related a successful defense using a weapon."
I showed you that it was not a handful but it is is in teh hundreds and thousands. IN the last 24 hours, there were 13 reported cases of self-defense with a gun published in media in the last 48 hours.
But the media shouldn't be the source fro crime statistics, that needs to be from the police and DOJ but those agencies don't have a uniform method for tracking self-defense because after-all self defense is not a crime.
Those phone and interviews like all polling data is the best way to conduct research on self-defense use and so far only Kleck has taken on that research and has published his results in peer reviewed journals.
I am not saying Kleck is right or wrong, we simply don't know because no one has so far done similar surveys to verify results. Kleck says millions, you say a handful.
The only argument against Klecks data is his numbers are significantly higher than FBI statistic but considering the huge number of unreported crimes we don't know if Klecks numbers are off.
But you argument was I have read papers for 50 years and rarely see such stories. But when you read hundreds of newspapers and TV media outlets every day, the number of reported stories is significant.
I am merely pointing out that Self-defense is a right guaranteed in common law for over 500 years. Common law is the basis for our legal system. The right to own and bear is is a right that was reaffirmed but the Supreme Court as the right of the individual, and 44 states guarantee a similar right to bear arms in their State Constitutions.
And as always, instead of just claiming facts I also provide sources with links to original data.
State Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms Provisions
http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm
2ndright, of course Just Facts decides which original sources to include, and as I was trying to point out, you might want to look at how they've dealt with issues beyond gun control, such as health care, and see if you feel they've attempted to be objective in their choices.
I didn't say armed self defense didn't occur. I said my experience as a media consumer didn't jibe with your claim of its ubiquity. No, that's not scientific, but given that crime reporting is a major element of journalism, the fact that I've seen so few items dealing with armed self defense to me is prima facie evidence of its relative rarity.
The sources you cite in response, such as the NRA and Just Facts, are problematic in terms of their avowed opposition to gun control (the latter stating they are "conservative/libertarian in our viewpoints", and the data selected would appear to bear that out, despite their claim to objectivity).
But at some point this is arguing over the number of armor piercing bullets you can fit on the head of a pin, isn't it? Neither of us will convince the other that the intel we cite in support of our positions is accurate.
So let me move on to your final points.
I haven't said that there is no right to bear arms, only that it isn't absolute, and should be subject to rigorous regulation, which I feel would preclude its exercise by all but a very few individuals.
Others would argue for a complete prohibition, and while at present I would disagree with that, I think they can make a compelling case for it.
But simply because a right is granted doesn't mean it is beneficial to society. History is rife with "rights", such as to own another human being, that were given the force of law, only to be rescinded due to the tireless and courageous efforts of those who were able to see beyond "what the law says".
In the end, each of us decides what does and doesn't align with our conscience, and whether we have the courage of our convictions.
The struggle over whose vision will hold sway is the story of humankind, isn't it?
Empirical: Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
Observation, the over 1,000 stories reported each year in the news media about self-defense with a gun. http://www.twitter.com/2ndRight
Research: Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment Journal of Quantitative Criminology
March 2000, Volume 16, Issue 1, pp 1-19 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1007588410221
Report from the Dept of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) Defensive Gun Use 1994 indicated 82,000 annual defensive gun use (DGU)
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=946
Say what? "... grandiose and historically inaccurate"??? Hahahaha.
Let me digress a bit here first. Steve Rendall, it appears your sources were selected via a combination of deliberate bias and confirmation bias.
While it is true that Lott has been criticized, that criticism has also been overblown. I have read the NRC's "rebuttal" to Lott's criticism as well. They spend a lot of words to say next to nothing. It amounts to a statement that research regarding whether carry laws increase or reduce crime are inconclusive. But they miss the much larger point that it is irrelevant whether there cause-and-effect. More on that in a moment. But where Lott's own research has been criticized, he has vindicated himself. Example: he was unable to produce the raw data from one of his studies, claiming that a hard drive failure caused its loss. (Hey... I am a computer professional and despite backups, I have lost data before that way too.) But he was raked over the coals, and accusations were made that the paper was "faked". His response? He performed the entire study over again, and published the results WITH his raw data. Yet people are still trying to accuse him of "faking" it. What a load of BS.
But back to the subject I was discussing: whether there is cause and effect in regard to the carry laws as NRC stated is really not that important. There *IS* a well-known and consistent correlation, even if no cause and effect. See my other comments here. Big picture, we know from DOJ and BCS stats, without much wiggle room, that: (A) per-capita crime today is half what it was 20 years ago. Including firearms crimes. Including shootings. And despite what you read in the papers, mass shootings and even school shootings are down from what they were before.
Yet, in the same period, per-capita gun ownership has gone steadily up, and per-capita carry permits are completely off the charts, compared to 20 years ago. See the map I linked to in another comment.
Those numbers are from your own government. If you are inclined you can go to the DOJ and BCS websites and look them up yourselves. And while they don't prove anything (because statistics can't prove), they can and do clearly DISPROVE the notion that more guns means more crime. Because we HAVE more guns, yet we have less crime.
But now back to my original point: "Historically inaccurate"? Apparently, Steve, you are ignorant of the Supreme Court decision that stated the right to bear arms specifically refers to military-style arms. And also of the actual history and spirit of our Constitution.
Here are some "historical" quotes from our founding fathers. These are just off the cuff. I can find hundreds more. I just happened to have these at hand.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." -- from "Essay on Crimes and Punishments" by Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson in his own "Legal Commonplace Book"
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to J. Cartwright, 1824.
"The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to T. Cooper, 1814
"Mr. Chairman — A worthy member has asked, who are the militia, if they be not the people, of this country, and if we are not to be protected from the fate of the Germans, Prussians, &c. by our representation? I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor; but may be confined to the lower and middle classes of the people, granting exclusion to the higher classes of the people. If we should ever see that day, the most ignominious punishments and heavy fines may be expected. Under the present government all ranks of people are subject to militia duty." -- George Mason, at the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 14, 1788.
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive." -- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787)
Should have read, "Yet (B) in the same period..."
Washington Post Fact Checker gives Obama claim on Gun Background checks Two Pinocchios.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/update-obama-claim-on-background-checks-moved-from-verdict-pending-to-2-pinocchios/2013/01/25/59caeca6-672f-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_blog.html
Here is what the President said.
“The law already requires licensed gun dealers to run background checks, and over the last 14 years that’s kept 1.5 million of the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. But it’s hard to enforce that law when as many as 40 percent of all gun purchases are conducted without a background check.”
— President Obama, remarks on gun violence, Jan. 16, 2013
“Studies estimate that nearly 40 percent of all gun sales are made by private sellers who are exempt from this requirement.”
— “Now Is the Time: The president’s plan to protect our children and our communities by reducing gun violence,” released Jan. 16
And WaPo's response:
(R)ather than being 30 to 40 percent (the original estimate of the range) or “up to 40 percent” (Obama’s words), gun purchases without background checks amounted to 14 to 22 percent. And since the survey sample is so small, that means the results have a survey caveat: plus or minus six percentage points.
Dang the Science of Statistics and those pesky fact checkers at the Washington Post.
Doug,
Your argument was the use of guns for self defense is a rare occurrence and happens a handful or maybe a couple dozen times per year. The data shows self defense use of guns happens hundreds of times every day.
Moreover, the right to bear arms is a right guaranteed in the US Constitution and 43 State Constitutions. It is a right just like free speech and unreasonable search and seizure.
Guns are one of the most regulated goods sold in the US. The current new round of regulations seek to ban guns for how the look and not for how they function. Banning guns based solely on their color or because one model has a pistol grip is not reasonable regulations.
The Second Amendment still covers modern guns for the same reason the First Amendment covers the Internet and blogs.
For the record, I originally stated that I'd only seen a handful of incidents reported in decades of reading papers, which did indicate to me that this was a rare occurrence, and asked you for the sources of your information contradicting that assumption.
I later used the term "relative rarity" when stating that I thought my experience was prima facie evidence of that.
The NCVS data Rendall references would seem to be at odds with my supposition, which is why I said it would no longer inform my views.
You could look it up. Not too difficult, as a few scrolls of the mouse wheel will suffice.
Anyone interested can do so, and come to their own conclusions about both my comments, and the reasons for your misrepresenting them.
PD: Two Dead After Shooting At Maypearl Home
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/03/20/pd-two-dead-after-shooting-at-maypearl-home/
Yet there is one things authorities all agree on. “This is a perfect example of how, if the homeowner had not been armed,” Ellis County (TX) Sheriff Johnny Brown told reporters, “this incident could have very well had a different, tragic outcome involving our residents.”
A spokesperson for the department, Lt. Saulter said, the incident is an example of why the sheriff encourages citizens to arm themselves.
In the roughly 15 minutes it took deputies to respond to the home, he said, the couple was left to fend for themselves.
“This would have been a totally different outcome, I believe, had the homeowners not been armed,” he said.
-------- end of story --------
The FAIR author Steve Rendall claims "Owning guns doesn't actually help stop gun violence"
Tell that to this family in Texas lucky to be alive tonight because they had guns to defend themselves.
There have been over 100 reported stories of self defense with guns reported in the media across the United States since this article was first written some three weeks ago. Not one case where the homeowners gun was used against them and in fact in one case, an unarmed homeowner was able to wrestle the gun away from the bad guy and then use the gun to defend himself.
Sadly, but not unexpectedly, no one at FAIR will acknowledge these stories or the data. Not exactly, what would you call it, fair.
[...] Steve Rendell, The Self-Defense Self-Delusion, FAIR, 3.1.13; Dave Gilson, 10 Pro-Gun Myths, Mother Jones, [...]
[...] from: The Self-Defense Self-Delusion About FAIR- What’s FAIR? The Self-Defense Self-Delusion Owning guns doesn't actually help [...]
[...] The pros and cons read one review: http://fair.org/home/the-self-defense-self-delusion/ [...]