Last night’s broadcast of the O’Reilly Factor (5/19/11) provided ample evidence–if more were needed–of Bill O’Reilly’s bigotry.
He started by trying to explain why Barack Obamais unpopular in Muslim countries:
The answer is complicated but does reflect my opinion that there is a Muslim problem in the world. The United States and the West are largely secular societies that do believe in human rights. The Muslim world is centered on religion and may Muslims believe if you don’t worship Allah you are an infidel and therefore you don’t deserve human rights. In fact, in certain parts of the Muslim world if you are not the proper sect of Islam, you can be persecute and even killed.
It’s quite odd for O’Reilly, who has loudly complained that the “traditions of Christmas are under fire by committed secularists, people who do not want any public demonstration of spirituality” (Extra!, 5-6/05), to assert that the difference between the United States and Muslim countries is that one is secular and the other religion-centered. He went on to elaborate:
In addition, you have the Jewish situation. Because the USA supports Israel and many Muslims hate Jews, we are tarred by that hatred. It’s centuries old, it’s not going away any time soon. The USA has poured trillions of dollars into the Muslim world. Fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan designed to liberate those people from tyrannical governments. But apparently vast majority of Muslims are not grateful.
It’s hard to know which part of that is most offensive–that Muslims are anti-Semites, or they haven’t thanked us for the Iraq War.
He closed the interview segment with this:
For every Muslim in the world that wants democracy and wants human rights, there is one who doesn’t. And the one who doesn’t, doesn’t have any rules. And it will blow the hell out of the one that does.
Re Muslims hate Jews – perhaps not all Muslims are anti-Semites and you may find it offensive but is it accurate? There are numerous sources which document how Mosques and Madrasas teach explicit anti-Semitism, so much so that some grow up believing Jews aren’t even human.
Ayaan Hirsi-Ali has written about this, connecting this wide-spread teaching to why Holocaust denial is so prevalant. In the LA Times, she wrote:
If there are problems with anti-Semitism in the Muslim world, how can we possibly discuss it if merely posing the issue gets written off as offensive?
Amazing! O’Reilly is paid to deliver the “facts” as some want them to be.
The facts as they are could not possibly more irrelevant to his audience.
He has so much in common with Obama in that respect.
The irony of O’Reilly’s remarks about anti-Semitism is that he follows in the footsteps of demagogues like Father Coughlin, doesn’t he? He just directs his bile at other “others”.
As for “many Muslims believe if you don’t worship Allah you are an infidel and therefore you don’t deserve human rights”, the hypocrisy of that is made plain by the experience of many Muslims in this country, in which if one does worship Allah, you are treated as though you don’t deserve human rights.
Anti-Semitism exists in many societies, and is to be condemned in all of them. Again, it’s ironic that our closest Muslim ally, Saudi Arabia, is among the worst of these, isn’t it?
But what is presented as anti-Semitism by the O’Reillys of the world is often anti-Zionism, which condemns the actions of the Jewish state in oppressing the Palestinian people, and aids and abets Western imperialism in the region.
True, some use that legitimate anger for their own anti-Semitic purposes, but it’s equally the case that pro-Zionists conflate the two for their own ends as well, isn’t it?
Until there is a just resolution to the tragedy of Palestine – and to me that entails a one-state solution – and an end to US and Western domination of the region and their unholy alliance with local dictatorial regimes, there will never be reconciliation between two peoples who have both suffered greatly from historical prejudice.
There’s no point in wondering about this any further–O’Reilly is a man of profound, often-times comical ignorance and stupidity. His bigotry stems wholly from this over-arching ignorance. Really, he doesn’t really know much about anything, and the fact that he’s paid millions of dollars a year is more than enough to convince him that he’s a sage.
Say, Tyro–shoot Ms. Ayaan Hirsi-Ali an e-mail and ask her what a “so-called Muslim country” is.
Because Bill O’Reilly is a clown and a tool of the right wing does not mean that there is not a problem with Muslims.
Why does the world have to endure a segment of countries that have taken over part of the Earth for only their people? Why should Jews not be able to go to Saudi Arabia when every other tolerant country allows pretty much everyone to go pretty much everywhere?
Why are their country where to get anywhere in life you must be in the elite party, only this case the elite party is a religious elite. In strict Islamic countries non-Muslims are second class citizens.
Why would anyone not see this as a problem. Why would anyone give these places a pass on some of the repressive places in the world?
Islam is like a license to institutionally abuse, and letting these societies expand and emmigrate outward causes problem with other countries who do not abuse people like this.
From Tyro’s post (quoting): Jews were said to be responsible for the deaths of babies and for epidemics such as AIDS, and they were believed to be the cause of wars. They were greedy and would do absolutely anything to kill us Muslims. If we ever wanted to know peace and stability, and if we didn’t want to be wiped out, we would have to destroy the Jews.
From brux’s post: Why does the world have to endure a segment of countries that have taken over part of the Earth for only their people?… Islam is like a license to institutionally abuse, and letting these societies expand and emmigrate outward causes problem with other countries who do not abuse people like this.
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Is it just me, or are these charges directed at the respective religions somewhat similar? Maybe only varying by a matter of degree?
Perhaps the same types of ridiculous assertions are being thrown around on both sides. Certain Muslims spread hateful propaganda about Jews. Certain people in the West spread hateful propaganda about Muslims. The pot calls the kettle black. I guess it’s easier than actually understanding one another.
The problem is religeous fundametalism, whether Muslim, Christian or other. With a worldwide connection between peoples, maybe there will come some enlightenment. Am I dreamin’. // Jean Clelland-Morin
I have news for Bill O’Reilly and other bigots who are ignorant of Islam as well as the Arabic language. For both Christians and Muslims, the word “allah” is generic for God.
Bill O’Reilly is an idiot!
I cannot believe that President Obama sat there calmly yesterday while Netanyahu lectured him on Israeli peace demands! Even Pat Buchanan was stunned at the utter disrespect that the Prime Minister of Israel showed for our President. This comes from racist ideology, they are treating Obama like they treat the Palestinians. He needs to cut off every last bit of aid to Israel, and then we will see if Netanyahu changes his tune. How did such a small country, led by right-wing fanatics, get such a strong hold on America? Israel is an albatross around American necks and its time to cut them loose!
“traditions of Christmas are under fire”…what?
I agree. Almost all religions have demonized (often literally) other faiths. Islam is perhaps one of the worst as the attacks against Jews are explicit within their holy book and even so-called “liberal” Muslim mosques still teach unquestioning acceptance of the Koran.
Perhaps more dialogues and understanding will help. I know that we can’t make progress without acknowledging that there is a problem. Labeling these comments as “offensive” without first discussing their veracity shuts down conversation. As long as liberals won’t engage out of fear of being offensive, we cede this ground to the racists like O’Reilly or, in Europe, Geert Wilders.
“Could the answer [to why no Muslim group dispute Holocaust denialism] be as simple as it is horrifying[?]”
Could it be that this is a bare-faced lie by a neoconservative professional apostate?
Their think tanks like to create red herrings to dangle in front of us while they do their dirty work with less scrutiny. It is often effective as are the real thing since so many of our remaining publications are more tabloid than news worthy.
Interesting that O’Reilly claims that Moslem hatred of Jews is centuries old. In fact, Jews fared much better in Moslem countries than Christian ones for most of the 1400 years or so that Islam has existed. Both Jews and Christians were treated as people of the book. They were not persecuted as Moslems and Jews were in Christian countries. The Nazi holocaust was a European phenomenon and grew out of the Christian religion’s labeling all Jews, past, present, and future as deicides. It is O’Reilly’s Catholic Church that bears the onus for creation of the substrate upon which Nazi genocidal racism flourished.
Everyone here ignored TYRO’s first hand experience.Because -it lays bare liberalisms mush- mouthed blame America and Israel first- demented belief system.There is a great hatred of jews by a huge proportion of Muslims….Period!He is telling you he has seen it and lived it.And you are marginalizing his testimony with smokescreens .Trying to dig deep for mud for a tit for tat slinging contest.
Genierae…What did you miss?BB treated BAM just like so many other world leaders have(Russians).With a growing impatience at the utter stupidity and inexperience of the man.He tried his best to be patient and instructive to a man who is asking the Jewish nation to lay their heads upon the block below a swinging scimitar.We do need to cut off money…to Obamas election campaign!
@ michael e: No, Tyro’s post quoted someone else who lived it. Read a bit more closely next time.
On a larger note: so the anectotal experience of one person is conclusive evidence of pervasive anti-Semitism in the Muslim world? That’s how it works, then?
My grandfather was discriminated against by Protestants (mostly Baptists and Methodists) because he was Roman Catholic. Guess that proves all Protestants are bigoted. Case closed.
Wow. It’s easy to prove a lot of crap when that’s the method you get to use. No wonder Fox News does it.
Thanks John, for pointing out another monstrous bit of imbecile carelessness by You Know Who. Amazing, isn’t it? Revealing, too: a single person of the right-wing persuasion makes sweeping genralizations about tens of millions of people and it’s readily believed because it conforms to the ignorant fool’s prejudices and ignorance.
P.S.: It might help to google Ms. Ayaan Hirsi-Ali–an interesting person. One may draw their own conclusions, but her ensconcement at the AEI suggests that the intellectual Right (I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt, no?) sees her as an ally.
If you check the link and if you’ve read either of her books, Hirsi-Ali certainly does have a varied and interesting story in her own right but she is drawing upon a lot more. The linked editorial is talking specifically about Holocaust Denial which is so widespread in Muslim countries that political leaders support it. Worse, as she points out, no prominent Muslim group has challenged it. Of course there is more. The Koran, which Muslims are taught to not question, contains such gems of tolerance as:
[The Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal. (Surah III, v. 117-120)
And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind (Surah 11, v. 96)
In 1968, there was an official gathering of Muslim theologians to discuss Jews called “The Fourth Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research”. Amongst their odious statements, they declared: “The hatred felt by various peoples of earth throughout history for Jews was not due to their belief but their actions, behavior and attitude towards the peoples amongst whom they settled. It is an unchangeable behavior, always based on exploitation, ingratitude, and evil-doing in return for kindness.”
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps O’Reilly is wrong – he certainly mangled a lot more in that statement.
My point is that there’s enough evidence that we should be able to discuss this without being written off as “offensive” before we start. And second, I think there’s enough evidence of a problem that a reasonable person can say that there is a real problem of anti-Semitism with the Muslim faith.
re Hirsi-Ali and the AEI
After her college Theo Van Gogh was shot and nearly decapitated in Amsterdam, she has been living under a very real threat of death. Protecting her is a significant expense, one that few governments or companies have been eager to pay. The AEI is one of those very few groups.
Hrisi-Ali has said that the group has not tried to influence her writing and her work. Perhaps she’s wrong, perhaps the influence is subtle but real.
Regardless, there are no left-leaning groups that have been willing to stand up and protect her from those who would kill anyone who criticizes Islam. When the choice is death or the AEI, even the most hard-core liberals can be excused for taking shelter.
So the measure of a group’s authenticity or truthfulness or willingness to stand up to something perceived as wrong is “standing up” to it by, say, issuing a “statement” condemning the wrong, or the crime, or whatever? The right-wing has used this witless canard to bully the left and their “friends” the “radical Muslims” for years. It’s a turn, not surprisingly, on the old Soviet method of making minority and marginalized groups bend to the will of the State–demand obeisance (confessions, pointless, forced condemnations of the very obviously bad by groups you’re assumed to be friendly with), and when there’s the slightest variation from the Theme, total and relentless condemnation. How or why would a “left-wing” group “protect” Ms. Hirsi-Ali? You make this preposterous statement above: “When the choice is death or the AEI, even the most hard-core liberals can be excused for taking shelter.” (My emphasis) So, the AEI somehow saved Ms. Hirsi-Ali from the jihadist hit squads that were pursuing her? Jesus Christ! C’mon! You’re simply regurgitating the hoariest of right-wing paranoid lies. I ‘ll remind you that AEI supplied much of the imbecile intellectual rationale that got us in to the Iraq war, an illegal war (which means all death and destruction are the US’ fault) that caused unimaginable mayhem and degradation to Muslim people. AEI is a rotten, despicable, intellectually bankrupt organization. You know what else? I read The Nation, and I can assure you that the subjects you address are treated with a bit more nuance by the Left (and that magazine is just one example) than you can imagine, certainly more so than by the rigid, violent-minded, moribund jerks at AEI. Gotta love the irony of an apostate Muslim feminist (!) woman seeking “shelter” at AEI. Simply grand.
P.S.: If you want more, check out screeching feminist Katha Pollitt on this and many other topics involving feminism, female genital mutilation, radical Muslim women, crazy Republicon nutzoids, and other fun stuff who shows, routinely, indisputably, that lumping millions of people into one easily hated group is murderous folly. Do your own research; I’m not going to link up Pollitt. Go now, and get enlightened.
tyro wrote: My point is that there’s enough evidence that we should be able to discuss this without being written off as “offensive” before we start. And second, I think there’s enough evidence of a problem that a reasonable person can say that there is a real problem of anti-Semitism with the Muslim faith.
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Not sure I agree here. When you start off the discussion with the conclusion: “Islam suffers from pervasive anti-Semitism,” what’s the other party in the discussion ‘sposed to say? If he protests this conclusion, do you point to some anecdotal evidence and passages from the Koran and say, “Well here’s the proof; reasonable people should be able to agree on this. What’s your problem?” I don’t see how that can lead to anything productive.
Let’s flip it: A Muslim leader starts off the discussion with “US Christian ministers are bat-poop insane.” Naturally, that’ll get a good chunk of our populace’s dander up. When the disputes come in, he responds “Well look at the Westboro Baptist Church; and that wierdo former hobo preacher in Florida; Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, etc.” Maybe he plays a few videos clips from some of the more off-the-wall Religious Right gatherings…. Quotes a few passages from the Bible that don’t make much sense (and there are a lot of them)… “There’s your proof. Anybody reasonable should be able to see that, what’s your problem?”
In framing the debate this way it makes it easier for people to tolerate Israel’s Palestinian oppression, or at least easier to defend Israel’s cause. If you start out the debate with something like, “Palestinians don’t hate Jews, they just hate zionism and what Israel has done to them,” it changes the whole tenor of things. Now I don’t know if the above statement about Palestinians is true, and I certainly don’t claim to know what the greater global Muslim community thinks about Jews vs. zionists– or if they even make such a distinction. But I can’t help but wonder if we in the West resist framing things this way due to cultural or political bias. Or do we not frame it this way because doing so would not reflect reality? I just don’t know.
Does anyone believe that Christianity is a monolith? How about Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism?, Janism? Ba’hai Faithism? Mormonism? Why then would anyone think that Islam is a monolith?
There are 1.5 billion Muslims, that means a hell of a lot of individuals, some whom may even like the Jewish people. I was brought up in the South with its inherent racism, I remember the White Only water fountains, you know the high quality ones, and the Colored Only water faucets that was not from an ice cold water machine, but was just a spigot, more, or less. And there was this prevailing notion that the pure coloreds were not very smart, that if they had a little white in them, then they would be smarter than the pure black skinned Africans. Yeah, they were black because they were cursed by god and were meant to be slaves to the white man, god so ordained it. From a young age this racist crap was pumped into me. But, it never took root, I just did not buy into in any shape nor form. Though everyone around me used the N word, not me, I just refused to use that word, cuz’ I thought it was hateful and I didn’t feel hateful towards my fellow citizens whom I called at the time, my colored, or Negro friends, but as time went on the label changed from black to Afro-American, or African American. There was also a lot of Jewish jokes about kikes and the like, which I also did not join in, as well as saying things like jew someone down on the price of something, that also did not take with me. And frankly it was not hard for me to not take on these attitudes.
I was from 8-10 years old in a Pentacostal orphanage, that villified Catholics and during the 1960 presidential election, all the adults got together to vote against the Catholic, John Kennedy; they were not opposed to his policies, just his religion. This place was more like a cult. There was Chapel at 9 AM every morning for 1 and a half hours without fail; then there was a half day of reading the bible and learning how to win souls for Christ, as well as keeping a log of favorite bible verses; then at 9 PM there was a period of devotions in which we read the bible some more and reflected on what god did for us that day, this lasted 30-45 minutes every night. So they had their own school from grades 1-12, and only half a day was spent on math and English, you know, academic stuff, but the teachers were always referencing the courses to something in the bible, which was very confusing for me, I couldn’t get the connection(most likely cuz’ there was none). To this group, Jews, Catholics, and not explicitly stated, but implicit was that the “colored” was damned and even though there were no black people at the orphanage, we were told white people were superior to those who had dark skin, red, yellow, or brown. Again this religious stuff did not take with me. I just did not believe it. So my experience in the South at two orphanages, fortunately, the second one did not emphasize religion so much as the first did, and even though it was a Methodist Church organization, they did not once mention anything to do with helping to save souls for Jesus. They seemed genuinely to care for the welfare of the kids as a top priority, and I really was not prepared to leave after graduating high school, I was so naive about life, but what I had for experience was some religious indoctrination, some racist indoctrination, white supremacy and white privilege indoctrination, but I gotta say, none of what I was taught stuck with me, I rejected it all, and chose to find my own path. I had no father around as a role model, my poor mother was tucked away in a state mental hospital for a deepseated depression due to my half brother’s head injury that left him with the mind of a four year old. My other half brother just divorced himself from his family and went off on his own. My sister, she, unfortunately was on the rosters of saving souls for Christ, the Pentacostal schooling for her was a success, and even though when we left the first orphanage, she had to repeat 2 elementary school grades, the fourth and the fifth, because she was so far behind everyone else in her classes. I fared better in that regard, even though I was behind everyone in my classes, I adjusted quite well, actually, I was fortunate, I think to have an IQ of 129, I think it was what saved me, because I could think way ahead of many people and so could anticipate future moves, or actions. And we were behind in elementary school because we were being taught religion, not academia as we should have been.
So, I think that of all 1.5 billion Muslims, that there is a good chance that some of them fared as I did, they do not hate the Jews, or Infidels, they are not all cut from the same mold. As it is, I am not a racist, as I was taught to be. I do not call Jewish people kikes, nor do I try to “jew” anyone down on a price, and I do not hate Catholics, people of color as I was taught, I am not a white supremacist, nor do I feel I have any kind of white privilege. This stuff I was taught and at a time when I was vulnerable, naive and very insecure. But the narrow views did not define me, and I work hard everyday to understand the world around me, with a dedication to facts and evidence. It is not inevitable for Muslims to hate the Jewish people, nor the other way around in spite of what they are taught, it may take something of which I am not aware of to combat the indoctrinations of childhood, but I think they can be overcome.
I know of no liberals who are afraid of discussing issues, hot button or otherwise, difficult ones or easy ones. No liberal I know is that closed minded, though there may be some, I am just not privy to anyone like that.
@TimN – Not sure where much of that came from. Again, I agree with you that the AEI has done a lot to dislike and I am loathe to use them as a source in general. I do think this is an exceptional case and all I’m saying is that we should look to the evidence. Surely that’s something we can support.
So, the AEI somehow saved Ms. Hirsi-Ali from the jihadist hit squads that were pursuing her?
I can taste the sarcasm but yes, that’s pretty much the case. After the Dutch government, the AEI provided the security she needed to keep her relatively safe. I don’t think there are “hit squads” but individual zealots are dangerous enough. The threat to her life is real as van Gogh should demonstrate. When we have actual dead bodies, it isn’t “paranoid”.
Do your own research; I’m not going to link up Pollitt.
I don’t know much about her but if she speaks out on these issues from the left then I’m delighted. Shall I share links where leftists have blamed the victims and defended these atrocious acts on the grounds of multi-culturalism? It would be long and tangential. Perhaps we can stick with whether we can discuss whether “many Muslims hate Jews” without being reflexively dismissed as being “offensive”.
@John,
When you start off the discussion with the conclusion: “Islam suffers from pervasive anti-Semitism,” what’s the other party in the discussion ‘sposed to say?
O’Reilly started by saying that many Muslims hate Jews and Peter Hart dismissed this immediately by saying it was offensive. I am only saying that whether many Muslims hate Jews or not is a question of fact, and a serious question at that. It’s not something which should be dismissed out of hand. The discussion should certainly not be shut down immediately by labelling people as offensive or bigots.
I was presenting these snippets and quotes not to prove that there’s a problem with anti-Semitism in Islam. Rather I wanted to show that it isn’t ridiculous and obviously false and that we shouldn’t insult and marginalize people merely for this belief. Instead I think it’s worth exploring. If it is a real problem then it would be serious and worthy of our attention.
If there is a problem, the people who are going to be hurt are the Jews. We aren’t doing anyone a favour by dismissing this.
Is saying that many Muslims are anti-Semitic equivalent to saying they’re bat-poop insane? Is the official press of Egypt, the foremost convention of Muslim leaders and the president of one a major Muslim country really analogous to Fred Phelps and the Bakkers?
Let’s make it a bit more concrete and imagine someone in Iran saying that many US Christians were homophobic. That’s insulting for sure, but we can all think of a lot of support for this (possibly mistaken) belief. If someone believed this, would we say they were wrong or would we dismiss them out of hand by saying that the mere suggestion was “offensive”? I think that we would take it seriously and look at the evidence. And frankly I think that after we did so, even if we disagreed, we’d see that there’s more than enough good evidence to indicate there’s a real problem.
tyro wrote: I think that we would take it seriously and look at the evidence.
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OK. And that evidence is… Bill O’Reilly’s opinions? Someone’s first-hand experience about her life? One country’s leader’s opinion about the Holocaust? That’s a pretty weak case to build if you’re trying to prove that “many Muslims hate Jews.” (Although, come to think of it, that statement is so general, there’s pretty good odds that it’s correct.) Has this issue been studied at all? Are there differences between eastern and western Muslims? Is there a distinction between Jews vs. Zionists? I don’t know any of these things.
And yes, saying many Muslims are anti-Semitic is a lot like saying they’re bat-poop insane. It’s a slur, based on no real evidence that anybody seems to cite to. The relation between the US Christian ministers and Muslim anti-Semites is this: you should not let the idiotic thoughts of some members of a group speak for the group. The Westboro Baptist Church, et al., no more represents the mainstream Christian view than Osama Bin Laden, et al., represents the mainstream Muslim view. If there’s good evidence to the contrary– that the mainstream Muslim view is OBL’s or anti-Semitic– nobody seems to bring it up. Anecdotes come up all the time; but the plural of anecdote is not data.
But to continually bring up the unsupported charge that Muslims are anti-Semitic, or violent, or hate the US, or whatever, can seem awfully culturally or politically biased. It’s like saying: we don’t need to prove this allegation to any real degree, because just look at ’em– they’re different than us.
I have been reading everyones blogs and I don’t think anyone has noticed the seminal sentence.” Barrock Obama is unpopular in Muslim countries.”Now this cant be true.Bill O must be wrong.Barrack promised us better relations.Once Bush was gone we were told by the powers that be in the DNC that those countries who hated us would poop lemon gum drops and piss dom perignon our way- on request.We were told it was Bush.He was the reason they were trying to kill us.All those things we do that make us deserve things like 911 would be washed away by the hand of our savior Barrack Obama.We would be loved by all.Bill must be wrong.No way they STILL hate us!
@john
Hey, as long as we’re agreed that we can ask, consider evidence and form a conclusion I’m happy. I just found Peter’s knee-jerk dismissal to be very unreasonable. O’Reilly may be wrong (in fact he frequently is), but being wrong isn’t offensive.
I quoted a lot of different sources and I went out of my way to avoid fringe groups. If these won’t fit, who then? I think a decent survey would be illuminating and no doubt O’Reilly’s off the cuff statement could be refined and made more precise.
Incidentally, it was trivially easy to find high-profile leaders, media organizations and politicians openly attacking the Jews. Would you care to find any who spoke out in defence of the Jews? I know, absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence but if you look hard and can’t find, it must raise some doubts.
Again, I’m just saying that there’s enough evidence to indicate a problem and that we should be discussing it and not shutting people down.
If there was no basis behind the accusations then it certainly would be a big problem. However I don’t think it’s baseless. If it isn’t baseless then accusing people of raising this issue of cultural bias (whatever that is) is just lending tacit support. When there’s injustice, we need to speak up to defend the oppressed. At the risk of bringing up the Nazis and plunging the debate into chaos, we have too many examples in the past century of entire nations and cultures which were anti-Semitic and the Jews paid a horrible price.
If there is anti-Semitism (or homophobia or racism or whatever) then it is right and just to bring attention. If it’s prevalent in an entire culture or religion then it’s especially important. I am a little surprised that I should have to defend this so much.
How do you think we should address issues?
As to violence, ask yourself why comedians, artists, politicians and writers feel free to create works like Piss Christ, burn bibles, and mock religious figures yet even mild criticism of Islam is met with violence. Many people have been assassinated in the West for merely speaking out, people have been arrested or face lashes because they “disrespected” trivial items that happened to bear the name Muhammed. Who can forget the innocent deaths after the Terry Jones protest or the Danish Cartoon controversy?
It is no exaggeration to say that, in most of the world’s religion blasphemy is met with indifference except for Islam when it’s met with violence (from religious protesters or even the state). That isn’t bigotry, that’s a lamentable fact.
tyro
Your talking a boatload of sense thar partner.I tend to hope that much we read that would inflame us against muslim populations may be colored.I would hope that the scenes i saw of the cheers on 911 in Palestien and other Arab countries were blown out of proportion ,or even faked.I would hope the silence over OBLs death in those places was also just due to bad reporting.I would hope there are massive million man marches all over the muslim world in defiance of the terrorists that have highjacked their faith -that they share no “faith” with. And likewise that no one has reported it in some right wing conspiracy. Sadly i do not believe that.There ARE lamentable facts.We cant disregard them.
@ Tyro, I am a Muslim, an African American Muslim who lives in the US. The number of things that are distorted or just plain wrong with yours and Bill O’Reilly’s contentions are so vast and numerous that I could use the sea as ink to discuss and refute them, yet would still have more to say.
To start off with, the Quran says many things about the Jews, some good, some bad. Please remember it was revealed during a time in which Muslims were at war with the pagans, and some Christians and some Jews were allied with the pagans.
And some Jews were allied with the Muslims. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was in fact invited to Medina, where he lived for years with the Jews in Medina and helped settle their debates.
The Quran also says this: “Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book (the Jews and Christians) are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works. They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.”
â┚¬”ÂQur’an, sura 3 (Al-Imran), ayat 113-115[29]
You see, we could both quote Quran to try to prove our points. But without a broader understanding of the Quran and Islam, we wouldn’t get any where. I am not that learned a Muslim, but I have read the Quran at least 15 times in full in my lifetime (I’m in my 30’s) and I have some knowledge of hadith, so please let me tell you five things I know.
1. Muslims are required, as in OBLIGATED, to believe in all prophets, including Jesus (pbuh), and Musa (Moses) (pbuh) as righteous men and messengers of Allah. The Quran mentions the story of Moses (pbuh) and Pharaoh many more times then Muhammad (pbuh) is referenced by name.
2. Muslims are also taught to believe that Allah sent books at various times, among them is yes, the Torah. Gasp! But we believe these books to have been altered by men.
3. The Quran clearly states that some from among the Jews, Christians, etc. will go to Paradise.
4. The Quran also talks about the Jews as killing the prophets, worshiping their rabbis as they should worship God, and also cautions against taking them as friends.
But wait a minute? How is number 3 and 4 both CORRECT?!!! Well, see number 5.
5. There are some Jews that are bad. Number 4 talks about the Jews as a whole race, number 3 is talking about Jews on an individual basis.
So yes, there are the bad Jews that were enemies of Muslims at the time the Quran was being revealed. THERE ARE ALSO BAD MUSLIMS. Some of those bad Muslims preach hatred, like anti-Semitism.
And there are some ignorant Muslims who have little knowledge of their religion who listen to THEIR own Bill O’Reilly’s like people and believe in the messages of hatred and prejudice that those Muslim Bill O’Reilly-like people preach.
To end with, I think anti-Semitism does exist in the Muslim community, but my view of it is that the conflict in Israel has greatly contributed to it, especially among the Arab community. For the majority of Muslims who aren’t of Arab descent, which is like the 70%-80% rest of us, (Most Muslims are Asian, not Arab), anti-Semitism is pretty much a non issue.
You’re looking at the vocal and active minority of Muslims who are anti-Semitic and thinking it applies to most Muslims. It doesn’t, just like the anti-Muslim sentiments of a number of conservative preachers, politicians and speakers here in the US doesn’t reflect the views of the majority of America’s public (hopefully).
P.S.
“It is no exaggeration to say that, in most of the world’s religion blasphemy is met with indifference except for Islam when it’s met with violence.” Wow. Just. Wow. You’ve never heard of any, um, wars fought supposedly in the name of Christianity, have you?
Yeah, I guess “That isn’t bigotry, that’s a lamentable fact.”
I’m suspicious about quotes of Bill O’Reilly, above. I see what must be typos. I can’t imagine O’Reilly talking the way these quotes have him talking. If they are typos, then they are unsettling. We need to be told verbatim what O’Reilly said, if we want to authoritatively debunk his bunk. Carelessness doesn’t inspire confidence. While I have no doubt that the matter looked at here is looked at closely, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t annoyed and just a wee bit concerned.
When we activists are quoting, anyone, for purposes of activism, then we must get it right. Period. I would think.
@abdul,
I am delighted that you are not anti-Semitic and that there are thriving communities which are not. I also appreciate you sharing your unique experiences.
I don’t wish to debate theology as I think you’re right that there’s enough in the Koran to justify both sides on this issue, just as Christians cherry-pick their bible. However I do find your defence of the Koran rings hollow. Denigrating members of a religious group is not made any better by saying some are good. I’m reminded of the many people who say racist things only to finish with “but I have black friends and they aren’t all bad.”
I would be happy to be wrong on this issue, just give me a reason. Do you have any evidence that these vocal and active Muslims are in a minority? Can you cite any leading Muslim organizations which have spoken out in defence of Jews or have condemned this alleged minority? Can you find any other data like surveys, editorials or public groups which would represent what you believe is the Jew-friendly majority?
If we are talking just a minority, is it large enough that we could still say truthfully that “many Muslims” are anti-Semitic?
If you don’t want to do the leg work, can you at lest tell me how I could go about getting a feel for how most Muslims feel on this subject? I checked major sources from several different countries and looked for those that had the largest membership and political power and broadest membership and they were uniformly anti-Semitic. There wasn’t even a hint that this was a controversial subject.
I thought I was clear that I was referring to the world today but if not I apologize. You’re right that Muslims today aren’t dramatically different than Christians of the past. But societies have changed and I think improved. I don’t it’s a defence to say that modern Muslims are no worse than 13th century Christians. In fact, I’d say that’s the very problem.
Wars also don’t deal with the all-too-common violent overreaction that Muslims have demonstrated when confronted with even mild disrespect towards Muhammad or Islam. In many countries, apostasy is punishable by death.
Abdul
You seem like a man who is not led by hatred.I would want to believe you are inclusive, and accept a live and let live belief system.I would hope you see that when some say that not all muslims are terrorists -but almost all terrorists seem to be Muslim, it is in a sense not an attack against you.It is the world pleading for help from the only people who can help end this theft of a religion. Destroy this petrie dish of hatred from wherever it springs. Muslims! Only muslims can kill this hatred. And the conflict in Israel does not pre date this hatred.Hitler had Muslim allies in his destruction of the Jews. And far beyond that.
Lately my faith (Catholicism) has had its troubles with child molesters in the priesthood.We must above everyone else root out this evil.No excuses.We march………..When do you march?
Nice work, Abdul. Patronized much? And, sure, tyro: By all means gets those links up about all those “leftists” doing all those terrible things you’ve imagined them having done. Katha Pollitt writes a regular column for The Nation, a fairly well-known publication (even Rush Limbaugh knows about it). You wrote this: “Perhaps we can stick with whether we can discuss whether “many Muslims hate Jews” without being reflexively dismissed as being “offensive”. I never dismissed anyone or any ideas, no matter how dumb, as being offensive. It takes a lot to offend me. Getting me angry or pissed off is another matter. This entire series of exchanges stems from FAIR’s work: They simply pointed out that Bill O’Reilly is an ignorant simpleton (again, for about the hundredth time in the last two years). You may think he’s on to something, or that his poorly-held opinions are worth considering. I don’t. The problem here is that old devil equivalency; that any schmuck with a bullhorn (whether at AEI or Fox) has a valid opinion or set of “facts” worth considering. Simply check out the witless farrago of lies from the poster above (“Hitler had Muslim allies in his destruction of the Jews. And far beyond that.”) to get a little taste of what reactionaries and other people Up To No Good have in store for thinking people. You present yourself as a rational fellow simply after the facts, but that’s not the case. Your mind is made up, and that’s that. Fine, and just keep rolling with it. Finally, you wrote this: “If you don’t want to do the leg work, can you at lest tell me how I could go about getting a feel for how most Muslims feel on this subject? I checked major sources from several different countries and looked for those that had the largest membership and political power and broadest membership and they were uniformly anti-Semitic. There wasn’t even a hint that this was a controversial subject.” As long as you’re in a patronizing mood, perhaps you can post up the evidence for this startling conclusion as well, after the leg work you’ll be doing for me on the perfidy of the Liberals. Hop to it!
P.S.: Confess, Abdul, Confess! The sooner you reveal your true, monstrous, hidden self, the quicker we can help you.
Are all Muslims anti-Semitic? No. Is there anti-Semitism in Islam? Yes.
Then again, there is also anti-Semitism in Catholicism, so as for Bill O’Reillyâ┚¬Ã‚¦
@tyro “can you at lest tell me how I could go about getting a feel for how most Muslims feel on this subject?” Yes, of course, there is a very simple thing you can do. Go to the mosques, not just one, but a few. Try ones with foreign Muslims and ones with African-American Muslims and so on.
Tell them you’re interested in learning about Islam. Go to their meetings, Friday prayers, who knows what you may find? Because that’s what I’ve done, for oh, say 20+ years. I’m sure you’ll hear lots of things, some anti-semitic, some not.
@micheal e, when you start with a false premise, you sorta blow your whole argument. If you’re truly er, marching about child molesters, bravo!
In regards to terrorists being Muslim, that of course depends on your definition of terrorist AND who is doing the defining. But if terrorism is just acts of violence to induce terror, well there are many more people then Muslims out there responsible for it.
I consider some of the US’s actions terrorism, such as the fire bombing of Japan in 1945, some of their actions in Afghanistan and Iraq would be included if I further added “disregard to civilians’ safety” to the definition of terrorism (from wikipedia by the way).
Likewise, suicide bombings in Palestine, etc, 9-11 attacks and so on are also acts of terrorism.
@TimN Ahaha. Well, since you insist, I confess! I think the Palestinians are being driven from their land and I do side more with the Palestinians then the Israelis in that conflict.
Why? Israel and Palestine have both committed acts of terrorism, but Israel’s killed more people. More Palestinians have died. Suicide bombers are scary, but they can’t compete against Israel’s military.
So yeah, Israelis should give up some of the land they’ve took, US should try to be a fair broker instead of aiding Israel and I need to stop writing these long expositions.
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