I felt like there was something slightly off about this New York Times story yesterday (3/15/12), “In Reactions to Two Incidents, a U.S.-Afghan Disconnect.” Reporter Rod Nordland wanted to explore why Afghans seemed so much more outraged over the recent burnings of the Quran than they were about a massacre of 16 civilians by a U.S. servicemember. His piece begins:
KABUL, Afghanistan– The mullah was astounded and a little angered to be asked why the accidental burning of Korans last month could provoke violence nationwide, while an intentional mass murder that included nine children last Sunday did not.
“How can you compare the dishonoring of the Holy Koran with the martyrdom of innocent civilians?” said an incredulous Mullah Khaliq Dad, a member of the council of religious leaders who investigated the Quran burnings. “The whole goal of our life is religion.”
Nordland tells readers that the apparent lack of protest after the massacre
speaks volumes about a fundamental disconnect with their Afghan partners, one that has undermined a longstanding objective to win the hearts and minds of the population. After more than 10 years, many deaths and billions of dollars invested, Americans still fail to grasp the Afghans’ basic values. Faith is paramount and a death can be compensated with blood money.
There have been several incidents where American journalists expressed puzzlement over cultural reactions that seem rather understandable–being offended by foreign soldiers raiding your home in the middle of the night doesn’t seem strangely “Afghan” to me.
The Times piece goes to several religious leaders to try to understand the idea that the burning of the Quran is likely to provoke more outrage than, say, burning children. I am not sure it’s totally advisable to rely on said religious figures to explain cultural reactions that way. (It would certainly not be the best way to understand American culture, for instance.) Readers hear from one academic who cautions against the interpretation that seems to be driving the piece:
“We have to hold our breath here–people are jumping too fast on this idea that Afghans don’t care about 16 people being killed, compared to, say, the Quran-burning episode,” said Haseeb Humayoon, a social scientist here who has studied the phenomenon of mass protests.
But it’s hard not to jump to that conclusion, given the tone of the coverage. As Salon.com‘s Glenn Greenwald pointed out, an NPR segment dwelled on the same question, with host Robert Siegel Steve Inskeep summing up a comment from a guest: “Human life is already cheap, is what you’re saying, and religion is something that’s a little more intense.”
I guess another way to think about this is to flip the story around. One of the major themes in the U.S. political debate after Quran burnings was outrage that Barack Obama apologized for the incident. After the massacre, as FAIR documented, politicians were remarkably callous, and journalists wondered about the PR implications, or the effect the massacre might have on the war “strategy.”
Perhaps a better topic to explore might be the peculiarities of American culture in response to a massacre committed by a member of our military.
It’s sickeningly ironic that the corpress suddenly focuses on the value of life in Afghanistan after spending a decade promoting its denigration and destruction, don’t you think?
“Human life is cheap” has been their mantra from the beginning.
And shouldn’t it be clear, after over 200 years of empirical evidence, that the US doesn’t give a good goddamn about the “hearts and minds” of those it seeks to “liberate” (or in an earlier imperial era, “civilize”) …
Only their land and resources?
Oh, are these suggestions on Afghanistan coverage based on your extensive time spent reporting there, Peter, or your PHD in Central Asia studies? I guess what you’re suggesting is going to “academics” to report on what’s happening there in the ground? Yes, that always works out so well.
During the Vietnam War, when Buddhist monks set themselves on fire it was explained as an indifference to life. This led, almost inexorably, to the notion that Vietnamese parents didn’t place any value on the lives of their children, so it was okay to kill them.
I have to start by asking Judith exactly who came to that conclusion about Buddhist Monks burning themsleves making it okay to kill Vietnamese children – sorry, just sounds a little “Christian” to me.
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the UNHOLY Trinity if you ask me and as long as they exist, there will ALWAYS be War.
Second, apparently many Afghan Parents DO consider their (Ahem) Holy book more important than their children – ESPECIALLY when you hear they will marry their child of to whoever raped them in order to “Restore Family Honor”???
And before any of you make assumptions about what I think about the U.S. being at war there, I’ll tell you plainly myself, it’s POLITICS and has nothing to do with liberating anything but resources that aren’t ours to take.
The term used in a lot of the press was ‘tragedy’. I would have used the term massacre.
As someone who has been to Afghanistan more than once and has spent time talking to men, women and children there, here’s my take on the apparent disparity between the expressed reactions to Koran-burnings and child-killings: in a nutshell, Afghans have suffered for so long, they basically expect life to suck and be cruel and so don’t freak out about it in a way outsiders would recognise.
This is a nation that for centuries has been the military playground of numerous foreign empires and states and a people that have been impoverished, abused, and basically murdered in droves by every one of them. Afghans are aware life, short as it generally is, is hard, harsh, and miserable and will be punctuated by starvation, disease, and premature death, whether that be through the aforementioned vectors or more violent means, say through foreign occupiers deciding to destroy a village or bomb a village gathering. So, when that stuff does happen, as it did last week, of course it hurts and wounds the survivors. Afghan parents who have lost their children or those who have been orphaned get just as upset about it as we would. But they are frankly used to it and don’t let it stop them getting on with their lives, such as they are. On my first trip to Kabul in 2002 I asked someone who worked with orphaned kids how he dealt with the trauma and shock I expected his charges to suffer from. He told me Afghan kids didn’t generally suffer much from this sort of thing, at least not as much as one would expect from Western children in similar circumstances. This was because although they had gone through horrors they had been taught from birth this sort of thing would happen, that it was basically the will of God.
Abuse of Islam, on the other hand, is not something that is tolerated at all in Afghanistan. I really don’t think anyone should have to justify someone getting upset about the religion. I’d be pretty annoyed, at least immediately, if someone went round burning the Bible, say to prove and point and try to offend Christians. So yeah, about that they protest because its not something they think should be happening.
Its a different world over there. Totally alien to what we have in the West. A world where short, difficult lives are the norm. Be glad we don’t take foreign troops murdering our kids as such a common occurrence.
Wow. Very astute White. Thank you. Lucky me I´ve never been to Afganistan.
It does not seem that strange to me that they would be more upset re the Koran …. Christians here would be screaming bloody murder if the Bible were burnt as well. After all, the women and children while beloved members of individual families would be considered to be martyrs and in Heaven. I think also that the families would value their children as much as any American. We go ballistic over the American Flag which is just a symbol of this country but you would think some people thought that the country itself were attacked when someone decides to burn it to express disgust with it’s policies.
It is always easy to twist a problem anyway one wants. The NYTimes wants to make the Afghns look bad and America look somehow nicer… sorry it just won’t work!
Well said White. Many westerners don’t understand the way of life for some. It’s like in Occupied Palestine. We have come so used to the Israeli Occupation and its atrocities committed on our populations for so many years. As a Muslim, we love and embrace our children. The Israelis said the same things about Palestinian parents who throw stones at Israeli Occupation soldiers. They claim that Palestinian parents actually encourage their children into committing violent acts, which is untrue.
We don’t like losing our children to war or any conflict. There’s no parent in the world that doesn’t love their children — regardless of religion or race.
But alas, we live in a “Manifest Destiny” and a “White Man’s Burden” world society. Why don’t you Americans go hug your screwed up kids — like a couple of weeks ago with the school shooting? It’s always some unloved white kid who kills his classmates. Is it the Christian religion? Oh my goodness — never?! go watch that film bowling for Columbine.
Islam is a way of life and its values/ principles/ ethics surpass any western racist ideology or any western society that lacks family values and that has no respect for humanity.
What kind of insane redneck US military soldier urinates on Afghan dead corpses? In Islam, REGARDLESS of the religion and race, we respect human life and would never urinate on a corpse. If a Homer Simpson-American ignorant idiot were to read about Islamic history, you would find the true beauty of humanity. But alas, westerns continue to believe the untrue stereotypes of Islam and Muslims.
Learn people — you must learn.
The logic of the article seemed to be “If only they were rioting, it would affirm how much we have in common.” You really have to wonder if this is the angle the New York Times would’ve taken if rioting had in fact broken out in relation to this incident. One thing practically any academic, or, I think, any person with a little common sense, can tell you, is that riots aren’t entirely predictable. Sometimes people are looking for cues from other members of the community they respect. Sometimes small differences in the way police or military are deployed makes a big difference. If there is anger, it will come out sooner or later, but sometimes it does wait until later.
We must remember that the burnings were in effect an accident.So to switch this around …..how would Americans act if muslims in the Iranian embassy admitted to accidently burning some bibles?My guess is nothing at all would happen.To quote Jorge “thank god ive never been to afghanistan”Some say we may never understand how sick and twisted some people have become over this book.Their wrong.We remember 911
Michael… let’s really switch it around. Let’s imagine an Iranian army of occupation had been
in the US bible belt for a decade, had killed numerous civilians while killing thousands of Christian fundamentalists sympathetic to or leading resistance to the army of occupation. things had calmed down after Americans working with the Iranians had proimised that the Iranians would be going soon, and a number of Christians crossed over to work with the Iranians in what was seen as a very brave and controversial move. Then the Iranian army accidentally burned a bunch of bibles confiscated from prisoners being “interrogated” in Iranian custody. What would the American reaction be then?
So Tishado you saying this had nothing to do with their religion?It had to do with the Iranians genetic talent to remember upon their birth every slight real or imagined…every transgression upon their people ever enacted?Jesus can you imagine how the jews would act if a torah got accidently burned and they were born with that imprinted memory?Look Im a product of Scotland….Wanna really talk about a history of occupation and warfare?What the flip does that mean?You are making excuses for people acting like animals.But in a way you are right.It is not the religion.It is a perversion of it.Burn a ton of bibles.Keep your hands warm with it if your cold.Jesus would want it so.Burn the torah.It lives in the heart.If as you say they took prisoners and burned their bibles I think the reaction here might even make a blip on the news.Interest in the prisoners not their reading material being the story!This is madness.And worst of all….nothing but an accident.And accident appologized for by the military command and the president showing a massive amount of respect.The reply is always the same from this lot.Beheading and blood always close to their minds.Lets face it.They may be incorrigible.Like martians .As different from us as a roach and a cat.Sometimes I do feel we should hand them the check and bug out.But of course that is just a simple minded response.
correction…………2nd
line I meant Afghan
Every culture has elements that may seem strange to outside observers, but make sense to the people who live in and act under that culture. Witness the belief of some anti-abortionists that it is OK to murder a doctor who performs abortions, or the apparent belief in some fundamentalist Christian circles that homosexuality is so evil that it is acceptable to withhold civil rights protections from, or even to punish, homosexuals. Or even the belief in most societies that accumulation of riches is so valid that public help for the underprivileged is like Robin Hood taking from the rich to enrich the poor. Afghans suffer like any other humans at the murder of women and children, but deaths are so common that they may not be protested with the vehemence of burning the holy book or other sacrilegious actions.
michael e- You have never lived under occupation and therefore your reasoning is based on “whatever -makes-me -feel -good” logic. The monkey mind can reassure us of all sorts of things, but those who have ever lived under occupation/war know that it is pure terror.
NOTHING happens in a vacuum. WW2 was only for 5 years and left incredible damage not only in terms of physical damage. All my schooling was done in a bombed out (half) building. It wasn’t until 1956 that we got a new school. But the emotional /psychological damage stays with us for LIFE. Now think about the Palestinians who have had to endure a genocide and ethnic cleansing for the past 60 years. They should role over and play dead? There should not be any resistance to this illegal occupation they suffer? We’re talking about whole generations living under this oppression.
Anyone who claims that it is the Muslim religion that is hateful, has never read Leviticus, which clearly states how we kill our neighbor when he engages in this or that. OR read the Talmud which also clearly states who we should be killing and how. Christianity, the way we know it today has NOTHING to do with the teachings of Jesus, although it claims it does. Christianity was created by Paul and is largely based on the pagan teachings of Attis as well as Mithraism.
This Christianity/Paulinism has since its creation engaged in numerous wars, such as the Crusades, the burning and total destruction of whole German town for supposed witch craft.
Today, all those who wear Jesus on their sleeve are very eager to make/engage in war which suggests they have NO clue what the teachings of Jesus really were/are.
The war between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland had in reality nothing whatsoever to do with religion. It had everything to do with injustice, and the Oranges oppressing everyone else.
Nothing happens in a vacuum
If anyone in the world should not be questioning what they perceive as apparent inconsistencies or hypocrisy, the US should not be it. The ones pointing the fingers are the very same ones that force women to have children they do not want or can’t afford to have and support. Yet, that very same crowd cheers for the death penalty and war and shows their happiness every time human beings (children included) in other countries or from a faith/culture/ethnicity different than theirs are slaughtered. Hubris of empire and American exceptionalism (exceptionally ignorant that is) at their best.
Well one thing becomes very clear ‘here’ in America and that is the damage being done to truth from the other sources of supposed news. Too many of the commentator’s in the current Corporate Owned Media allow their mouths to run on, while the brain sits idly by with not a real thought in their head. This is taken as “holy writ” by army of morons listening to the Major media outlets, who then re-spew every syllable with vehemence and aggression at those who don’t fall instantly into obsequious Veneration of said data; “Credo ut intelligam” but perverted to “Credo” only.
I think it utterly important to realize that too much of the America Media is not based on Being Fair and Balanced in any way, shape or form. It is about selling and to that end, keeping the public on the edge with rage and confusion is their only goal.
As the saying goes, “When the amount of persons paycheck is inversely proportional to amount of clarity and understanding they can generate on a particular viewpoint, you will find nearly impossible to get them to provide either.”
What would the American reaction be then? – Tashido. We all know, The Religious Uber-richt would be going bug Nucking Futs, demanding that we Nuc everyone in the world; Because their invented God would demand it.
While we’re at it, here’s another stupid question for us to ponder, “Do Westerners love material wealth and power more than they love the planet or the people who live on it?” All of the major religions have huge body counts to their credit and oceans of blood on their hands. All of their followers claim that, unlike other entities such as political or economic systems, one cannot hold either their religions or their religious beliefs responsible for this. This kind of “thinking” is not credible to me.
As Dr. Chomsky an others have pointed out over an over. One doesn’t need a conspiracy if all or most of the reporters etc have gone to the same schools an learned the same lessons an look at the world the way they were taught. The bias is with he USA an the gov’t an the corporate backers an the US military as well. Their default is to support the USA against all others regardless of the facts. If the facts are in the way then you either not report them or cast them in a way that supports your position an denigrates your enemy into the less-than-human-they-don’t-feel-the-same-things-we-do explanation played as if it is a neutral observation only analysis. It isn’t but it is hard to find a better more neutral view. You have to spend an inordinate time searching for it. Though now it is easier an harder on the internet.
I have to agree with many of the comments above – – especially by Doug L, White, and Steve that unfortunately this is probably more a case of often stoic resignation to a horrible plight of too many massacres/’collateral damage’ with perhaps a desperate belief in a religious afterlife acting as one of the few rays of seeming hope. But like the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back, when even that emotional relief valve is desecrated and demeaned, it may be enough of a critical mass for the people to rebel in some significant numbers. After all, they have undoubtedly largely given up demonstrating against US bombing/occupation because it’s been going on for so long! People become inured to almost anything after a while… for instance, we in this country don’t find anything unusual or horrible about 35,000 (approx.) people being killed on our highways yearly. We don’t go mass protesting to our county/state/federal governments to make safer roads & have stronger enforcement and penalties. The weekend traffic accident fatalities are often on the 3rd page of the second section of the newspaper. We barely even pay attention to highway fatalities unless there’s a particularly large death toll (i.e., 4 or 5 people) in one incident. While that doesn’t mean we like it or want it, it DOES mean that we are used to it and sadly accept it as part of the price of living here.
Even on a political level, this country (especially our right wingers) is far from exemplar in terms of ethical priorities. We will hound a president in office over a consensual sexual act and almost impeach him, but another president can start a war on utterly bogus pretenses, be found-out and revealed, and we STILL elect him to a second term with no serious talk of impeachment even mentioned much less acted-on.
When people are confronted with their own faults for some time they have absolutely no insight into their own prejudice. It goes like this:
Hi, you’re wrong.
No, I’m right. Here’s why.
No, you’re actually wrong.
Oh, why are you such a not-from-my-group. Hey everyone, here’s someone different!
(from here on, a person will be able to be conscious of their tribal prejudice if it’s pointed out, which IS progress, although, now they are certain you are NOT in your tribe, so they become more vicious toward their opponent, with all the distorted irrational possibilities they have time for)
Yeah, but can you explain why you’re right?
Oh wow, I think what’s wrong with you is .
(now they are no longer trying to save their tribe but only their own fragile sense of self-worth, which is why apologies come out so fake and rationalized)
If you want to learn from history, WW2 is an excellent example in the failure of racial, nationalist, militant, elite tribal identities. The symptoms live on even in our memory of WW2 as a time when “we” were too slow to act, when in fact, it was suspicion of government or partisan propaganda that kept people back, NOT a cool-headed analysis of cause and effect.
*not in their tribe
Not that it furthers discussion in any way, but White’s post reminds me of this Onion headline: “Weary Haitians Shrug as Ragnarok Begins Outside Port-au-Prince.”
Amazing! The misunderstanding of moral fiber is extraordinary. Here a “reporter”, seems to want to demonize a people for their anger toward a disregard of their belief system. My goodness, not a tale of greed to build a pipeline through their country or a tale of opium production by our installed leaders. To be selectively ignorant is a poor trait of news persons, but a good trait for supporters of crony capitalism.
A Zionist who never cared about Jews burning thousands copies of Christian Bible in Israel – can be excused for his ignorance of Muslim faith in Afghanistan or anywhere else for that matter.
A practicing Muslim will also be sensitive to same extent if someone burn Christian or Jewish Bibles in a Muslim country – because Holy Qur’an commands the Believers to respect and honor all biblical prophets. They are forbiden to insult Jesus as the Talmudic Jews do.
Last month – Christians visiting the Baptist House church in central Jerusalem were greeted with anti-Christian graffiti painted in Hebrew on the outside wall. The graffiti, when translated in English, means â┚¬Ã…“We will (Jesus) crucify youâ┚¬Ã‚ and â┚¬Ã…“Death to Christiansâ┚¬Ã‚ Ãƒ¢Ã¢”š¬“ and crude insults against Jesus and his mother Saint Mary (reported by AFP). In addition to the gaffiti, tyres of three cars parked near by were slashed……..
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/israel-death-to-christian-painted-on-churches/
Rhmut again with the moral relativism.Now you are saying the problem with christians and jews is just as bad as the worldwide problem with muslims.Sorry not buying it.Problems between Christians and jews are nothing but a water fountain discussion.When i hear the next airliner was highjacked,it’s stewards throats slashed before the plane was turned into a bomb,believe me…….Im not saying “those damn Rabbi are at it again”.Or “God damn those priests”.You and i both know where these demons hail from.All muslims are not terrorists.But damn it all if most all the terrorists are muslim.Now you go on and tell me how WE are just as bad.Entertain me…You are the guy that would be trussed up like a pig to slaughter with this lot.Trying to reason your way out with them to be met by “dolls eyes”,black ,and dead as coal.And at that instant before they separate your head from your body for some imagined slight,your brain would finally……finally kick over, and come to the realization that YOU CANT REASON WITH THEM.
Oh to the rest of you……Boy your an angry, anti American lot.Riddled with negativism
(I wonder if he realizes that his comments are the most angry and strident here.)
Strict adherence to fundamentalist religious dogma and the irrational worship of money is the root of all evil on this planet, and until these things are done away with, humanity is doomed.
EfK I am sorry to be so strident(Im not angry).I feel as if I have to raise my voice to be heard among the din of the stomp of lockstep feet here.
Summing up michael e’s worldview, anyone who mentions the countless historical facts which support the idea that Judeo Christian societies have been equally or even more greedy, murderous, racist, and oppressive than their Muslim counterparts are simply fools who practice “moral relativism”. In other words Western ends are ALWAYS justified by ANY means, including undeclared premptive wars, extra judicial murders, torture, and disappearances. 9-11 is the only atrocity in human history which demands vengeance on an unlimited scale, because its (alleged) perpetrators were Muslim and most of its victims were Westerners. On the other hand, those millions of peole all over the world who have been victimized by Western Judeo Christians over the centuries have no recourse but to forgive and forget, and “to move on”.
PeaseHead
Understand i am a huge history buff .Since I was a small boy I have devoured books big enough to beat a horse to death with.I have traveled to far flung places just for the sake of studying a period that interests me.I agree with much of what is said here about the “births” of modern day Western culture’s.And a lot of it aint pretty.We here in the United States have given as well as taken our fair share of pain out into the world.No one is denying that.The movement of man is a movement of expansion.Sometimes a violent process.It is a blight on human kind.And today We all must do better to make war extinct(before it does so to us).BUT BUT We are not like animals born with an imprinted memory(of our history).And I wont let these arguments devolve into a belief that every horrific action on the part of some is counterweighted and excused by HISTORY..That is a form of relativism.And i reject it.
@michael.e
for as long as I’ve subscribed to FAIR, visited the blog, read the articles in question, have (hopefully) learned something, you Sir have been my greatest education.
Step forward michael.e and claim your crown. You are exactly what you have uttered—just a simple minded response [sic].