George Zimmerman’s mugshot
Rarely has a story contradicted its lead like Lizette Alvarez‘s New York Times piece on George Zimmerman today (7/13/12). Here’s the first sentence:
A wide-ranging investigation of George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, found a man not prone to violence or prejudice and who moved easily between racial and ethnic groups—a “decent guy,” “a good human being.”
No, he’s not prone to violence—except, as we learn after four paragraphs about what a great guy he is, that time that he slapped his ex-girlfriend:
During an argument with his ex-fiancée, a stylist he met at Supercuts in 2001, he slapped her in the mouth because she was chewing gum. As the two were breaking up, they pushed each other forcefully, and he kicked her dog in the stomach, she said. The dog bit him.
And he doesn’t show signs of prejudice—aside from that “MySpace page Mr. Zimmerman once kept where he went on a rant about the Mexicans in his old Virginia neighborhood, saying they would mess with cars and pull knives.”
I think it’s safe to say that Zimmerman has never been violent or bigoted, other than when he has been.
There was an Orlando Sentinel piece today that made the same claims, that interviews with “friends, neighbors and co-workers” didn’t reveal racism on Zimmerman’s part.
Well, that’s surely an impartial sampling, isn’t it?
And this:
“Chris Serino, the police detective who interviewed Zimmerman the night of the shooting, told agents he thought Zimmerman pursued Martin ‘based on his attire’ and not ‘skin color.'”
Talk about the fashion police.
Bad joke aside, had a white guy been wearing that hoodie, do you really believe he wouldn’t be alive today?
I wholeheartedly agree!
And don’t forget the news article that pointed out Zimmerman had been let go from a position as a Bouncer for club, because he was over aggressive on the customers, or the fact that he was found not eligible for police work because of his over-zealous physical attitude.
But this is just part and parcel for the same State that thinks “stand your ground” mean chasing down anyone who disagrees with you, and shooting them even if your miles from your property.
Oh and isn’t the same as the Rethuglicans “I was for it, before I was against it” routine.
Oh, how sanctimonious can we be?
Who among us hasn’t slapped our girlfriends, mothers, or even our grandmothers, for that matter, for not showing proper decorum when addressing the men in the lives of our little ladies? I’m willing to bet that dog was a little—starts with b, rhymes with witch—female.
And don’t get me started on the manly responsibility of keeping the lesser races and genders in their proper place. Our founding fathers were fully cognizant of these social realities when they wrote the Constitution.
George Zimmerman is not a violent person but He slaps his x-girl friend in the mouth be cause she was chewing gum. He also kick Her dog. He appears not to have a conscious. I hope He gets His just due.
This whole case is racist from the moment Zimmerman spotted Travon and it has continued with every person who has foolishly sent Zimmerman money for his defense.
Why else would someone give this much money to one person who shot someone else?
People get shot every day and others don’t contribute money for their defense.
It doesn’t matter if Zimmerman is free or in jail today…..once that trial is over, he will be in jail for the rest of his life.
Sent a note to the NYT’s public editor. Thanks FAIR and Jim Naureckas for writing this–
That the gender violence seems not to count is quite an indictment of the culture that lets that uncounting occur.
I’ve heard Mr. Zimmerman described more than once as “hispanic.” If that description is correct, what do we make of “MySpace page Mr. Zimmerman once kept where he went on a rant about the Mexicans in his old Virginia neighborhood, saying they would mess with cars and pull knives.”
Something complex about an ambivalent sense of self or identity?
Anyone with information? Any comments?
http://newsone.com/2016433/george-zimmerman-drugs/
Zimmerman on Drugs With Violent Side Effects When He Killed Trayvon [VIDEO]
May 20, 2012
By Kirsten West Savali
While the mainstream media made sure to report with exclamations and gasps that marijuana was found in Trayvon Martin‘s system on the night that he was killed, many outlets failed to also report that the level was well below what medical studies show cause “performance impairment.” The same can not be said for George Zimmerman. According to the paramedic report, the vigilante neighborhood watch captain was on the prescription drug Temazepam, reports MSNBC.com.
RELATED: NewsOne’s Trayvon Martin Coverage
Temazepam, also known as Restoril, is known to cause insomnia and anxiety, reports MSNBC. But there are more important side effects that were not mentioned.
Newsone exclusively reports:
According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the drug is also known to cause “aggressiveness” and “hallucinations,” among other problematic symptoms.
From the U.S. Library of Medicine:
“You should know that some people who took medications for sleep got out of bed and drove their cars, prepared and ate food, had sex, made phone calls, or were involved in other activities while partially asleep. After they woke up, these people were usually unable to remember what they had done. Call your doctor right away if you find out that you have been driving or doing anything else while you were sleeping.
“You should know that your mental health may change in unexpected ways while you are taking this medication. It is hard to tell if these changes are caused by temazepam or if they are caused by physical or mental illnesses that you already have or suddenly develop. Tell your doctor right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: aggressiveness, strange or unusually outgoing behavior, hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist), feeling as if you are outside of your body, memory problems, difficulty concentrating, new or worsening depression, thinking about killing yourself, confusion, and any other changes in your usual thoughts, mood, or behavior. Be sure that your family knows which
symptoms may be serious so that they can call the doctor if you are unable to seek treatment on your own.”
—
Let’s judge this guy on the basis of the death of a person, on the forensics, on the radio records, on his police booking, etc. Let’s research and see if he is violent. That’s relevant. But why lean backward to make him a raving racist?
I guess its not just Zimmerman who is too racist and sexist to notice how racist and sexist he is.
Zimmerman’s crime is zealousness – wearing his badge a bit too heavy that fateful day.. He is not the face of evil. He’s the face of tragedy.
Usual stupidity.
George Zimmerman has never been CONVICTED of any violent act. Alleged abuse by an ex-girlfriend is just that, an allegation. No court ever found her claims enough to prosecute.
I agree that the NYT story was weird, but the NYT has hardly been biased in favor of GZ in the past. Why do you choose this piece, after ignoring all the misinformation that has been put out on GZ? It’s not enough to say that FAIR cares only about inaccuracies from conservatives because it’s possible to be anti-racist and still dislike what has happened to GZ.
For example, a lot of lawyers think GZ was overcharged with second-degree murder, instead of manslaughter. That may suit people who think GZ deserves it, but the practice of overcharging has not worked out so well for poor people and people of color. Remember, that was the issue in the Jena 6 case.
Justice isn’t served if authorities decide to arrest people even though they don’t think they have probable cause, or if they think they have to make a case for political reasons. (See officer Serino’s account to the FBI in the latest release of documents.) It’s not good when people think bail should be used as punishment. This is a big issue for poor people charged with crimes.
So, the police and FBI found no evidence that GZ was racist, and they went so far as to contact sources within the white supremacist community. (Read the documents.) Yes, some years ago, he wrote something negative about Mexicans. I dislike this, but GZ is Hispanic, and lots of Hispanics stereotype Hispanics from other countries — just like someone from South Korea might stereotype the Japanese and someone from France might stereotype the Spanish.
Re: violence. First of all, you might want to note that his ex is describing what happened when they were about 21. I tend to believe women — I guess I’m prejudiced that way. Nevertheless, journalists aren’t supposed to print accusations as fact.
Even though you’re an advocate, you can still be … well, fair.
@padremellyrn You’re repeating unsubstantiated accusations. Keep in mind that if you do that to GZ, you have no moral ground in which to condemn people who repeat unsubstantiated accusations against TM.
@BARB Newsone is hardly unbiased. Restoril is a benzodiazepine, i.e., it reduces anxiety. Examples of other benzos are Valium, Ativan and Xanax. A paradoxical effect, such as aggression and violence, occurs in less than 1 percent of the population.
We know that Zimmerman stalked and then shot and killed Martin. We also know that he’s a liar–he tried to put it over on the court that set his bail. His past indiscretions are irrelevant. Over-charged? Really? The rest of your points make it sound like you’re working for Zimmerman’s defense team. Acting like Trayvon Martin and “GZ” are both on equal footing here is preposterous. Martin’s dead, and Zimmerman’s free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise, as Bob Dylan once said.
I still think that he’s a racist, just because the FBI is being selective in who they interview that to me is bias. Let’s not forget about the Mid-Eastern man he made fun of and harassed at work and this man had documented proof when he was interviewed by the FBI. ZIMMERMAN has racial bias and he is truly paranoid when it comes to black people…hell all he sees is black people. I don’t need NASA or the FBI to tell me what I heard on the 911 tape. I clearly here Fu*king coons. Coons is a derogatory term in reference to black people.
I still say that if Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white, Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot, jailed and would still be in jail.
The case does not hinge on if he was a nice person.Or if he ever slapped his girlfriend because she was chewing gum(hearsay.)Or if he ever kicked her dog (hearsay).It does not even matter if he ever pushed a girl down in the schoolyard(wait that was Obama).It does not matter if he referred to whites as honkeys or blacks as coons.It does not matter that he was following Trey and was in contact with the police.I followed a scary looking guy last week who was looking into my car(we have had a string of burglaries)I also called the police and gave them the license plate of the car he got into.So the many things that point to him being a dick do not matter.Or even if you could ever prove it…a racist!Here is what matters….Was he in his legal right to follow someone he felt may be breaking the law while trying to vector Police to the proximity?And two…was a physical attack initiated upon his person by Treyvon Martin, leading him to feel his life was in danger,resulting in the discharge of his fire arm?
Remember in the OJ trial ,so much was made of did Mark Furman ever in his life use the word nigger?Well they proved he did ,and a case rolled on it.It had zero to do with the case folks.
Frank is right.This has to do with witnesses to the scene, and forensics.The tape of him saying coon( supposedly )is far less important than the tape of him screaming help -help me over and over.
I think he was a dick.An over zealous wanna be cop with a need to be in a position of authority( who should never of had a gun,) that placed him in a bad place at a bad time with a dumb kid who learned somewhere along the line that violence is a problem solver.I think he will be found not guilty.I would rather not see his face again.
See I know if I went and sat on a milk carton in a bad neighborhood in a white suit that someone sooner or later will attack me.If my life was threatened Id be in my LEGAL rights to shoot.What irks people is this did not need to happen.There was no pressing need.Two stupid men met, and one died.no need…a tragedy.
It appears Zimmerman has been duly convicted of being a racist, so why do we have to bother trying him for murder.
Please, Didn’t get charged with domestic violence in Florida? If the woman still has her teeth there is no charge in that backwards world.
Michele aren’t you missing “Fox & Friends”?
I just visited Pa. Wow now I understand. buggies on the road and anti-Obama bumper stickers everywhere. The “where’s the birth cert.” billboards. And when I got to the hotel the extremely intelligent conversation on how we should take the “Government” out of education and let the private sect. take over. These are some bright guys!
Was he in his legal right to follow someone he felt may be breaking the law while trying to vector Police to the proximity? And two…was a physical attack initiated upon his person by Treyvon Martin, leading him to feel his life was in danger,resulting in the discharge of his fire arm? -Micheal
Have to agree with the majority of what you said; it was a stupid decision made by a stupid man who should not have had a gun in the first place.
In these two points however, he was in the wrong: 1) he was told by the Police at the time to not follow Trevyon. Whether he liked it or not, at that point he was not even following orders, 2) standing your ground does not mean you get to chase some down and start a confrontation especially when your told not to by the police.
Trayvon Martin should be a NRA hero.
An unarmed teenager was attacked by an armed assailant who had no credible reason to stalk him and had been told by 911 to keep away.
The latest claim is that the killer had received some lumps.
If so, the victim attempted to protect himself but could not overcome the gun wielding aggressor.
The NRA should be proclaiming to the heavens the right of victim Trayvon Martin to carry a weapon to defend himself.
Since Trayvon Martin was being pursued by an armed assailant, he was within his rights to stand his ground, even to the extent of killing his assailant.
Self defense may or may not have been an unwise choice for the young man to make when he faced a lethal weapon, but legal, in light of the fact that Zimmerman was determined to be violating police instructions.
The right to stand your ground is not conditional on the possession of a gun. The possession of a gun does not give a person a greater right of personal defense.
Trayvon Martin would have been within his right to use lethal force in defending himself from his assailant, Zimmerman.
GZ has already been tried & convicted by the public & news media. If he does not have constant protection, he will be executed by same.
I’m dissapointed by my more liberal sites convicting GZ without a fair trial which I beleive is now impossible. The “Gun Laws” should be on trial. GZ would not have used the gun if he was not allowed to by FL law. You use the “tool” you have.
Pedremellyrn
I dont know if you heard how this ended according to the testimony.Zimmerman did not chase him down.He was returning to his car when this happened.Trey approached him as he Zimmerman was getting into his car.Trey said you looking for trouble…to which zimmerman said no.Try said well you found it and sucker punched him,jumping on him yelling Im gonna kill you as he pounded him into the ground.Zimmerman had a broken nose,two black eyes,a concussion, lacerations to the back of his head…..Now zimmerman passed two lie detector tests on this.His testimony has been corroborated by every witness.Im not saying he was not a pain in the ass.Or that he listened to police.Im saying he broke no law Im aware of.You cant give somebody an ass woopin because they deserve it.Not if they follow you and call the police on you.Not if they smile at your girlfriend.If you start beating them and they feel their life is in danger- their personal firearm permit allows them to defend themselves.Thats the law and dems the breaks.Moral to the story is keep your hands to yourself.
Kyl Lap
I know Pa quite well.In many ways it is a microcosm of the country.The city of Philadelphia is racialized with 97% of blacks voting for Obama because lets face it…he is black to them.That pretty well goes for all other black areas in Pa..He carries ALL the poor areas because he holds their government stipends in his regal hand.In the upper west counties(potter) you have the white arian nation folks plying their fun and game idiocy.Very small group.I would say the farther you get away from government having their hands in the lives of people…The more self sufficient people are in the outer rural areas the more they distrust government control in general and in principle..In the middle is everybody else.The so called tax paying class.Top to lower middle.It is split 50/50 with the edge going to the right (though last time it went left).A huge non aligned group and a pretty good Ron Paul faction.In other words a little of this and a little of that.The election there will be close.To you that makes them(anyone who does not vote liberal left) an uneducated toothless class of hicks.Ok you go with that elitist crap.Obama cant win without Pa.I HOPE he goes on the insult train right along with you in Pennsylvania.
Pedremellyrn
I dont know if you heard how this ended according to the testimony.Zimmerman did not chase him down.He was returning to his car when this happened.Trey approached him as he Zimmerman was getting into his car.Trey said you looking for trouble…to which zimmerman said no.Try said well you found it and sucker punched him,jumping on him yelling Im gonna kill you as he pounded him into the ground.Zimmerman had a broken nose,two black eyes,a concussion, lacerations to the back of his head…..Now zimmerman passed two lie detector tests on this.His testimony has been corroborated by every witness.Im not saying he was not a pain in the ass.Or that he listened to police.Im saying he broke no law Im aware of.You cant give somebody an ass woopin because they deserve it.Not if they follow you and call the police on you.Not if they smile at your girlfriend.If you start beating them and they feel their life is in danger- their personal firearm permit allows them to defend themselves.Thats the law and dems the breaks.Moral to the story is keep your hands to yourself.
Kyl Lap
I know Pa quite well.In many ways it is a microcosm of the country.The city of Philadelphia is racialized with 97% of blacks voting for Obama because lets face it…he is black to them.That pretty well goes for all other black areas in Pa..He carries ALL the poor areas because he holds their government stipends in his regal hand.In the upper west counties(potter) you have the white arian nation folks plying their fun and game idiocy.Very small group.I would say the farther you get away from government having their hands in the lives of people…The more self sufficient people are in the outer rural areas the more they distrust government control in general and in principle..In the middle is everybody else.The so called tax paying class.Top to lower middle.It is split 50/50 with the edge going to the right (though last time it went left).A huge non aligned group and a pretty good Ron Paul faction.In other words a little of this and a little of that.The election there will be close.To you that makes them(anyone who does not vote liberal left) an uneducated toothless class of hicks.Ok you go with that elitist crap.Obama cant win without Pa.I HOPE he goes on the insult train right along with you in Pennsylvania….
Erica, re: “The ‘Gun Laws’ should be on trial. GZ would not have used the gun if he was not allowed to by FL law.”
Bravo for seeing that focus here and in the NYT article should be on Florida’s gun laws, which are appalling, and in particular the state’s so-called Stand Your Ground statute, which has served as a model for similar legislation in a dozen other states.
Whenever the mass media focus on a shooting, nothing gets past the corporate censors to tell us the name of the company that manufactured the gun, its CEO, its board members, its lobbyists, or the names of area legislators receiving the most campaign contributions from gun groups.
All of these individuals are far more responsible for our daily shootings than the pathetic creatures who pull the triggers, yet our news outlets, including such ostensibly liberal newspapers as the NYT, fail again and again to name them and list their contributions to political officeholders.
Prime among the gun promoters are the National Rifle Association, which virtually wrote the Florida law and has pushed hard for its passage in other states, and the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which promotes legislation based on the Florida law. The ALEC consists of conservative legislators and corporations like Walmart, a major gun retailer, and such other trigger-happy groups as the NRA.
According to a 2012 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the United States has the most murders, suicides, and accidental deaths due to guns of 23 developed nations. The report cites the U.S. for 80% of gun deaths and 87% of those involving children under age 15. America’s gun homicide rate for ages 15 to 24 was cited as 43 times that of all the other countries combined.
Since food is now produced commercially in America, we don’t need hunters blasting away at birds and animals for the fun of watching them die. Avid hunters are sick people, typically with sexual identity problems that should be addressed by professionals. Many of them have no idea what it is like to live in a crowded urban area, and they don’t care.
It is long past time for hunters and gun collectors to face the reality of contemporary urban life. To comply with the right established by the Second Amendment, the firearms of national defense volunteers can be stored in armories. All other functional guns should be banned from private ownership.
Rather than debating the vagaries of the George Zimmerman case, we should do the one thing we can do to get through to our elected officials: boycott the products of their benefactors. It’s time to send Walmart a message, an those of us living in densely populated areas could simply stop buying Florida orange juice.
Then at least, Florida’s lax gun control laws might get another hearing in the Florida legislature.
@michael e: First off, you don’t understand hearsay– or at least how it works. Pretty much everything written in a paper is hearsay and if you’re gonna pooh-pooh it on that basis, there’s no point of reading anything ever.
Second, it matters very much that he was following Martin while in contact with the police, since they were telling him not to do so. If he’s that much of a vigiliante dickweed that he thinks he needs to confront Martin, despite repeatedly being advised not to do so, then I’ll bet he didn’t confront him very politely. I’m willing to bet he was menacing, profane, and physically confrontational. If someone is gonna accost a kid in such a way after following him around for awhile at night, then he assumes the risk of getting punched. Sorry, dude, but if you wanna act like that much of confrontational dickweed, you gotta expect to get punched once in a while. This will likely be the argument the prosecution puts before the jury. It may not fly, but it’s certainly reasonable.
Thirdly, if Zimmerman is claiming self-defense, his reputation for violent conduct and aggressiveness– and evidence of specific incidences of such conduct, depending on what the law is in FL– may well be admissible. If (hypothetically) you’re on trial claiming to be an innocent victim who acted in self-defense, the prosecution is usually allowed to point out that you’ve started a fight with every person you’ve ever met. So I’d say this incident with his girlfriend and his prior resisting arrest charge have at least some relevance to the whole picture here. Whether the jury gets all that kind of evidence is a little more complicated, but this is a newspaper article.
The difference between your hypothetical of standing on a milk carton and what Zimmerman did is that you’ve done nothing (well, nothing legally-significant anyway) to bring the resulting attack upon yourself. Zimmerman got out of his car to confront Martin, and did so in a belligerent manner– so the prosecution’s theory of the case goes. We’ve had this discussion before and you seem to get wound up in the idea that you can’t be the one who starts a fight, or breaks any kind of law, unless you threw the first punch. I can assure you that this is not the law. All jurisdictions that I’m aware of recognize a crime called assault by menace or assualt by offer or something like that– confrontational and belligerent behavior without any physical contact. So if Zimmerman comes at Martin like the hyper-aggressive vigiliante dickweed he allegedly is, then Zimmerman has indeed started the fight. It’s not the intent of these “stand your ground laws” to immunize from prosecution the jerk who starts a fight that he then begins to lose. Think about the the impact something like that would have on society: if I wanted to kill somebody, I’d just have to insult and badger him enough until he lost his temper and took a swing at me; then I feel threatened and out comes the firearm and down goes Frazier. Even the staunchest supporters of “stand your ground” don’t want that. And if they do want that, then there’s absolutely no reason to take anything they say seriously.
Once again, just some friendly advice michael e: please leave confronting the bad guys to the cops. You can follow and report all you want, but if you’re gonna try to confront someone– even if you do so with the utmost politeness and courtesy– you must understand that the person you confront is (under most circumstances) under no obligation to answer you in any way, need not listen to you if you try and direct his or her movements in any way, and may well respond to you with a “Fuck off and mind your own business.” And once something like that happens, it’s way too easy for things to escalate out of control. Even if it doesn’t end up with someone dead, is it really worth it to get sucker-punched because you wanted to go talk to a suspicious-looking person? Really?
And to those saying that putting this info about Zimmerman out there is convicting him because he’s racist or a domestic abuser, that’s certainly a legitimate risk being run here by the paper. But I think the criticism is more about how the article paints Zimmerman as this great guy and burys his violent past as if it means nothing. His violent and aggressive past doesn’t make him guilty of the murder of Trayvon Martin, but it does have some meaning. Some meaning beyond being ignored because he’s a great non-violence-prone guy. The fact the article reported it at all is good, but I wonder: would the violent past have been in the first paragraph if Zimmerman was a Muslim? Or an illegal immigrant? Or something like that? Or would it make any difference at all? I dunno… just something to think about it.
michael e wrote: I dont know if you heard how this ended according to the testimony.Zimmerman did not chase him down.He was returning to his car when this happened.Trey approached him as he Zimmerman was getting into his car.Trey said you looking for trouble…to which zimmerman said no.Try said well you found it and sucker punched him,jumping on him yelling Im gonna kill you as he pounded him into the ground.
_____________________________________________
Could you post a link to this? Because I don’t recall reading that version of the facts anywhere. It may be what Zimmerman said happened, but I think you have to agree that he has a pretty strong motivation to make himself not seem like any kind of aggressor.
This version is pretty unrealistic, too, if you think about it. Zimmerman’s very upset that these punks are always getting away with it and he tells 911 that. He’s been following Martin for a while. He thinks Martin is on drugs. And he’s mad enough about all of this to ignore the police advice and leave his vehicle. So he left his vehicle to NOT confront Martin and immediately retreat to it so that Martin would have to attack him from behind? What’s the point of doing that? If he’s mad enough to get outta the car, it stands to reason he’s mad enough to confront Martin belligerently. If he wasn’t spoilin’ for a fight, he coulda saved a lot of time and effort by not getting outta the car.
michael e.’s lying? There’s a surprise. He’s simply making shit up? (“His testimony has been corroborated by every witness.” –Huh? What witness?) More incoherent bullshit.
@michael e: I almost forgot: I’m pretty familiar with PA myself– having lived here most of my life– and I don’t know anybody who’d call Potter County “upper west.”
We have an West Branch of the Susquehanna River, which I guess has an upper portion to it. But it’s not in Potter County.
I read FAIR because it deals with important issues and media misreporting. This FAIR commentary sounds like part of a witch hunt from the left. And I think FAIR is getting a little partisan, as well. It could elevate itself in many people’s eyes to look for media biases of the right and left.
@ Herman Schmidt: The left is impotent and the right is willing to destroy the fabric of society for political gain. So which examples of media bias on the left do you want FAIR to address? Could you be more specific?
John when I go to our land in Potter for hunting or fishing, I go North west(upper west).Im just a flatlander so ….just the way i see it.
John the scenario i painted is from the taped interview Zimmerman gave to Police shortly after the incident.He also spoke to Police moments after …at the scene.So far his story has not changed.Interestingly he told of screaming for help over and over as he got pounded.This was before he knew any phone had recorded it.Witnesses at the scene corroborated this part of his story.The “attack”took place only feet from his car.So it is obvious he was returning to it.
I think what you are saying is did his actions of following someone who he thought looked suspicious, and calling the Police prompt this tragedy?Absolutely yes.If he would of stayed home and watched the tube Trey would be alive.But that truly is apples and oranges.If you saw a man in your neighborhood at night that you thought looked suspicious and called the police;all the time keeping an eye on him till Police get there…….You may be right or you may be wrong.But no law has been broken.If you grab him, you HAVE broken the law.If he grabs you, HE has broken the law.So what you are saying is Zimmerman grabbed or attacked Trey,then shot him?I don’t think evidence will show that.If you are saying Zimmerman deserved an ass wooping, or to be beaten to death for his following Trey and vectoring Police…Im afraid this convo is over.Zimmerman on the Police tape says “he lost him ,and is returning to his car.”The incident took place at his car 2-3 minutes later.His keys laying on the ground below the door lock.Police were on scene almost immediately.Unless you have a new idea of how this went down I don’t see him being found guilty of anything.
@michael e: Re: Upper West. Maybe you shouldn’t be so certain about things you don’t really know. In fact, that’s a pretty good lesson for life.
As to the shooting: Yeah, that Zimmerman’s version of events. But you do realize he has an incredible motivation to tell his story so he’s cast as the victim of assault, right? I’ve never heard anything about the keys being found on the ground near his car, but that’s hardly dispositive: Zimmerman reported to 911 that Martin was running away from him and Zimmerman gave chase; perhaps he exited his car quickly and dropped his keys. I think the prosecution’s version of events makes a lot more sense than Zimmerman’s. As Zimmerman tells it, Martin manages to run away from him then ambushes him as he returns to his car, with Martin using some of the most stereotypical and stilted black language ever spoken. Seriously: do kids even use the word “homey” anymore? And “you’re gonna die tonight”? That’s what a 17-year old yells out in anger while beating someone up, huh? Sorry– that doesn’t sound very realistic to me; Zimmerman might as well have said that Martin called him a “honkey mofo,” too. According to wikipedia, Martin fell dead 70 yards from his relative’s house. So if Zimmerman’s story is right, and he was at or near his car when he shot, then Martin managed to elude him completely in a area less than the size of a football field. How realistic is that? It may be what Zimmerman said happened, but I don’t find it very convincing. Far more likely is that Zimmerman managed to confront Martin in some way, which was almost certainly his intention to do when he left his car, triggering a fight that Zimmerman began to lose. A jury will have the final say.
As to grabbing someone and breaking the law: yes, if you grab someone you break the law. But it’s not the ONLY way to break the law with assualtive and belligerent conduct. It seems that you don’t wanna take my word for this, so check out Sec. 2701(a)(3) of the PA Crimes Code. Assault by physical menace is a crime of assault that requires no physical contact. Check out Sec. 2706. Terroristic threats: you commit a crime by telling someone you’re gonna kill them or threaten to commit some other kind of violence. There are others. Put simply: you most certainly can break the law and commit a crime of violence without touching your victim in any way. Take the this hypothetical: You’re trying to walk past me in the opposite direction on a public sidewalk. There are walls on both sides of this sidewalk, so you can’t leave the sidewalk to go around me. If you move left to get around me, I move left to prevent it. You move right, I move right. You manage to be quicker than me and I run fast and overtake you so I can block your movements again. I’m doing this because I’m a bully and a jerk and I think it’s fun to watch you get frustrated that you can’t walk the direction you wanna walk. There is absolutely no physical contact between us at any time. How long do you think you gotta put up with that kind of idiotic behavior before it’s reasonable to push or shove me outta the way? You think if you called the police they’d just tell ya: “Sorry, there’s nothing we can do about it; he hasn’t grabbed or touched you. Good luck. Let us know if he touches you or you touch him and then we can do something”?
My point isn’t that Zimmerman “deserved” a beating for his conduct that night. My point is that if you’re gonna follow then chase some kid at night and eventually manage to confront them in some way, then I don’t buy that you can claim self-defense. Your anti-social, belligerent, and yes, even apparently criminal conduct caused the fight to happen. Zimmerman started a fight he began to lose and now wants to cry self-defense.
To all “neighborhood watch” wannabees:
1. Stay in your car.
2. Observe any criminal activity from the safety of your car. Take a friend with you and observe through binoculars if necessary.
3. If you need to carry any weapon-keep it in your car. Have a cell phone ready to call the police. OBEY ANY DIRECTIVES FROM THE POLICE OR REPRESENTATIVES OF THE POLICE (like 911 operator)
DON’T BE A DO-GOODER, STALKING IDIOT WITH A HANDGUN LIKE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN
In fact, the above should be an enforced federal law directive to all neighborhood watch organizations!
misterfact@yahoo.com
John there is no doubt that there are a lot of possibilities as to what happened.And as only one witness to the incident lives …..Trey will not have his say.Forensics will be prominent. Zimmermans story will be matched to the facts ,AND to the witnesses.Other than the fact that Treys body was within feet of Zimmermans car ,could Zimmerman be a consummate liar who instantly came up with a story he has never deviated from?It has happened before though it is doubtful according to detectives.So as you say we shall see what the court decides.I doubt if he is found not guilty that you will give a damn what the court says.Your last paragraph is simply you guessing what may of happened.It is out of whole cloth.There is nothing to say he confronted Trey.He followed him.Called the police.And had a personal carry permit.That we know from the facts.And check out sec 2706.Plug the great pee party revolt into that.Blocking peoples way.Threatening…..I can apply almost everything you wrote to them.Do you really want people defending themselves against them?Reporters block movie stars every day- all day ,in a very belligerent way.No they can not get physical just for the aggravation of it all.Again you can defend yourself if you are feeling an attack is imminent.How your story takes place next to the car I really can not see.
Now why are you being such a knuckle head about Potter county Pa?I have 150 acres of land, and a house there.Started hunting and fishing there in 1979.Thirty plus years ago.I have spent a lifetime in treestands,turkey blinds,and in hip boots there.To get there I drive 4 hours NORTH WEST from lower bucks county where I have another home..We are in the far corner, right on the edge of the county.That is the NORTHWEST in state of Pennsylvania as I see it.If you want to argue semantics you could call it center north I suppose ,though that may not be factually correct.
Michael Korman…….Your permit allows you to carry for your own safety….Period!!!!!That bit about leaving it in your car or staying in your car with a friend is a good safety rule -but that is all it is.It is not a law.
michael e says: } ‘According [to Zimmerman]- He did not chase him down.He was returning to his car when this happened.Trey approached him as he Zimmerman was getting into his car.Trey said you looking for trouble…to which zimmerman said no.Try said well you found it and sucker punched him,jumping on him yelling Im gonna kill you as he pounded him into the ground.Zimmerman had a broken nose,two black eyes,a concussion, lacerations to the back of his head… His testimony has been corroborated by every witness…'{
Fact Z-man shot Trayvon near the side-walk, on the lawn behind 2 ear / eye-witnesses home, just 70ft from his father home- well off the street were his car should have been parked. In order for Z-man’s claim of being attacked by Trayvon while getting into his car to be True- that would imply that Z-man stalked Trayvon by driving well up onto the side-walk / back lawn area! IMO if Z-man tries to make that story [LIE] fly in court the prosecution is going to rip-him apart!
Z-man’s Injuries: Police photos confirm he did have a small bloody gash to the back of his head [likely due to his struggle w Trayvon but possibly could have occurred from him slipping on wet grass & hitting his own head on the side-walk as he was stalking Trayvon down]. These same photos do NOT confirm any other out-standing injuries [IE: a broken or even a bloody nose, lip, black eye(s), etc]. It must be remembered that Z-man refused immediate medical attention at a hospital. That’s a very strange thing to do for a guy claiming he had a broken bloody nose, black eyes & a concussion!!!
Who attacked whom: We know Z-man stalked Trayvon even after being told to stand-down by 911 dispatch. Trayvon was on the phone w his girl-friend when Z-man confronted him & she confirms that Trayvon definitely felt threatened because he was being stalked by some creepy dude [Z-man] following him. As the confrontation began Z-man demands ‘What are you doing here!?!’ & Trayvon responded ‘Why are you following me??!’. Then apparently Z-man pushed Trayvon, causing him to drop his phone & the call w his girl-friend went dead. Thus what ever happened after that was STARTED by ZIMMERMAN! You can’t start a confrontation, no-where near your own home, especially after being told by 911 dispatch to stand-down, & then after getting your ass kicked- gun-down an unarmed teenager- who had as much right to be where he was as you [FYI: Trayvon was returning to his Father’s HOME & Z-man gunned him down just 70ft from his DAD’s HOME!], & then claim self-defense!
Mary Cutcher & her room-mate who were the closest ear/eye-witnesses to Z-man gunning down Trayvon [Trayvon was killed just several ft from their back-door], say that it was Trayvon crying & begging for help, & that Z-man was NOT crying- as they immediately ran outside to see Trayvon shot dead w Z-man literally standing over him! Ms Cutcher also says that the confrontation began several doors away from where Z-man gunned Trayvon down- implying that Trayvon may have wrestled Z-man down & then tried to escape in FEAR For HIS LIFE as Z-MAN Got-Up, Tracked & GUNNED HIM DOWN!!!
The Police video shows a non-distraught [almost nonchalant] Z-man shortly after the killing. Not only did Z-man NOT have blackened bruised eyes, He did NOT even have teary reddened eyes!
And another witness says that the struggle was on the Grass NOT The Side-Walk- which also contradicts Z-man’s story.
If Z-man’s claims of self-defense are so credible & backed up by EVERY Relevant witness- ‘Why did the lead homicide investigator recommend that Z-man be charged w man-slaughter that night??! Why would the special prosecutor then up the ante’ to 2nd Degree Murder??!
And your complaint about z-man’s past record for violence [slapping his ex-girl friend & assaulting a police officer while resisting arrest] is irrelevant hear-say just to make Z-man look bad. Well what about all the irrelevant stuff they’ve dug up RE: Trayvon being suspend from school for having traces of marijuana residue in his book-bag & him having [minute?] traces of marijuana in his system at the time of his death…, what he put on his face-book page, etc, etc, etc. All this is irrelevant to this case- Yet is being hyped to tarnish Trayvon’s image. So according to you, the perp’s past history of violence ain’t relevant, but that the victim may have smoked a joint a few days earlier – Is Relevant!
michael e wrote: There is nothing to say he confronted Trey.
_____________________________________________________
You mean besides the dead body?
My last paragraph is the prosecution’s theory of the case. This ain’t little ol’ john from PA making this up, you know. It certainly fits the known facts better than Zimmerman’s story. I can think of no good reason for Zimmerman to get out of his car unless he wanted to start some trouble and I don’t see any good explanation for Martin, if he managed to elude Zimmerman, to go back and then confront him. The world don’t work that way, in my experience. And no young black kids that I know (which is a few) don’t say “homey.” And I don’t think anyone’s ever said “You’re gonna die tonight” outside of a movie script. So, in short, I think Zimmerman made up a lot of his story in order to cover his ass. But if a jury buys his crap or doesn’t buy the prosecution’s to the point beyond a reasonable doubt, so be it. It may not be the right decision in my opinion, but it ain’t my call to make.
There’s a big difference between a group of photographers trying ot take a picture in public and an adult vs. a kid, one-on-one, at night with nobody else around. And that kind of context matters. No, you cannot start throwing elbows at anybody who gets in your way. But use of force may well be justified if some belligerent jerk feels compelled to play cop. I think that’s a pretty fair assessment of this case: Zimmerman decided to play cop and did so belligerently, since he’s got a case of Smith & Wesson muscles and is convinced he has a bad guy in his sights; Martin, since he’s a dumb kid, starts throwing punches and out comes the gun.
Potter County may well be northwest of you. That don’t make it “Upper West”, PA. There’s about 7 billion other people in the world, doc. Maybe you should try seeing things from someone else’s point of view once in a while. Just sayin’…
John I dont necessarily say anything you are saying is wrong.Your speculation may have some validity mixed in.I do think Zimmerman is a dick.I do think he had smith a wesson muscles.I also think he is a bit of a nut(he was always doing this it seems).Police considered him a pain in the ass.He thought it was his job to be the eyes and ears of the police.We both agree he is a creep.I just think his story of the final confrontation next to the car probable rings mostly true.I think Trey did come back to him for some reason .Maybe to say basically what is your problem.I think Zimmerman was being beaten up when he discharged his weapon.Forensics will easily prove that.The rest is eye witness accounts.One sided testimony.Tapes ,and yes speculation.Like you I would abide by the judgement of the jury.We had a big problem last year with kids running about beating the piss out of people in Philadelphia.It was 99% black perps.Some people were seriously and brutally hurt.Now context does matter.And it is different in every case to be sure.Suffice it to say that whatever happened before hand ….when you are being beaten up and believe your life is in danger ,you have the right to use your legal firearm.It has worried me that someone -on lets say the drive across from the art museum who sees a mob sweeping in on them beating everyone to a pulp in their pathway will pull his gun and stupid young people who are practicing violence will die.Of course if the man is black it will be seen one way.If he is white God help him.But Police understand use of lethal force rules.It really is simple…..To save ones own life?Was Zimerman fearing for his life?Would you in that instance?Did he suffer a broken nose(yes)?A fractured skull(yes)? 2 Black eyes(yes)? 3 Deep lacerations of the skull(yes)? And various bruises on his face(yes)?Horribly- the report of that gun signaled game over. Trey von Martin was dying.I can’t see how Trey (if he were alive)would of won a simple assault case.I attacked him and beat him within an inch of his life for following me?Would that of been his plea?No I think he would of lost big time.
As far as Potter.What in the hell are you on about?I just for a joke this past moment called my neighbor who lives “Up thar” all year (and grew up in Potter ) and asked him…….where do you consider Potter county to be in relation to the state of Pennsylvania.What quadrant?”His answer was simple …..The northwest quadrant ya id-yit!
Is it the word upper in relation to North that put a bur in your saddle?Beyond that i think you are just busting my balls with nonsense.
@michael e: I– and the law– disagree with your characterization of a valid self-defense claim. If you start the fight, you generally don’t get to claim self-defense. You start a fight and then lose it, it’s usually tough luck for you. It’s called an imperfect self-defense claim and it usually results in a voluntary manslaughter conviction. Sometimes there’s an acquittal and sometimes there’s a more serious conviction, but in my experience a voluntary manslaughter plea is the norm (luckily, these kinds of cases are not terribly common, so my experience consists of only a handful of cases). The moral here being this: if you’re gonna start fights, you run the risk of whatever happens to your victim win, lose, or draw. So it’s best not to start trouble, wouldn’t you agree? And one way of starting trouble is to be a belligerent, confrontational jerk. Cross that kind of line in the right circumstances– even without touching the other party in any way– the other side may well be justified in hitting you. And once you set that ball in motion and you start losing the fight, you shouldn’t be able to pull out a gun and start shooting, free of any kind of legal consequences. Like I said earlier: not even the staunchest supporters of “stand you ground” would want it to be used by the aggressor who started the fight so he could kill his victim. So, no, you don’t legally get to start shooting whenever you find yourself in a fight; just fights where you weren’t the aggressor.
Martin– if he were alive as in your hypothetical– need not win a simple assault case against Zimmerman. He need only have a reasonable basis for the use of force. Think of it under this hypothetical: assume that Zimmerman did act belligerently and confronted Martin, jawing at him and trying to keep in him from getting away. Assume further that Martin, having been surprised at night by this jackass reacts badly and throws him a beating and then goes home. Assume that there’s multiple disinterested eyewitnesses and a surveillance tape that verify ther previous assumptions. You think the cops might have a few choice words for Zimmerman while taking his report? I think so. They’d probably still charge Martin– mainly because he’s a punk black kid. But any successful prosecution is doubtful.
Yeah, I’m busting your chops about Potter County. If you come here jawing about how much of an expert you are on PA, you might expect to get called out on things like “Upper West”, there, William Penn.
Note http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/18513565/photos-crime-scene-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting – Do these photo suggest that Z-man may have fired TWICE that nigh??? In photos 2 & 3 there’s one empty shell casing laying on its side- BUT In photos 5, 6 & 7 there’s seems to be another empty shell case partially buried straight up in the grass [also note the red leaves near this case that’s not in photos 2 & 3].
In any event you can plainly see from these photos that for the story of Trayvon attacking Z-man while Z-man was approaching his car to be true, it means that Z-man drove his car off the street unto the back walk-way / back lawn area between 2 rows of apartments, as Trayvon some-how manged to hide in plain sight. Sound’s like BS to me!
John now you are saying he started a fight?That he attacked Trey?Or executed him?Where the hell is your evidence of that?And you are saying if you piss someone off (confrontational belligerent jerk)they have a right to attack you?Have you ever gone to any of these New york pee parties?Thats all you meet.Freedom of choice rallies..worse.Remember the unions bused people in to harass that republican Senator day and night outside his home?John I can call you names all day long and twice on Friday.I can do it to the president.I can walk around my neighborhood all day and night playing security man while in touch with 911 if I see something suspicious.IM NOT BREAKING THE LAW.You lay your hands on someone because you are pissed off ,and you damn well better hope they are not carrying.Keep your friggin hands to your self.That is a moral to this story.As far as your hypothetical….if Zimmerman touched him first that is assault.Any cop would arrest him for that.The same going the other way,.As far as I know trey had not a mark on him.You can say all you want on this case.I bet he is gonna walk free.We will see who is right.As far as Potter you are showing you are an argumentative creep.Philadelphia has a section called the far north east.Now “far” would anger you would it not?Potter is in the upper western area of the state.Live with it.Tioga and Erie are likewise.Washington state is in the upper western section of the countryWhat is so hard for you to understand.I feel as if I am speaking Chinese.I feel like you are telling me my house is not made of stone.I live there.Stop being a moron.
John Q – RE: 7/15 post
I for one agree with you 100% regarding hunters, the NRA, murder-rates & gun ownership in this country. It’s an anachronistic holdover from a cruder time when there was less food, less law, and less communication. Nowadays 99% of hunting can only be described as killing for entertainment, which is certainly a characteristic of sadism.
Sadly, guns (like sex & religion) are TOO convenient of a pandering device for unscrupulous politicians, so we’re unlikely to see anything sensible in this area for a decade or two, especially as the US economy continues to deteriorate and politicos need more intense distractive issues…
michael e says: ‘As far as I know trey had not a mark on him.’ – Obviously you’ve overlooked the small detail that he had a bullet-hole thru his heart!
@michael e: Whaddya mean “now am I saying Zimmerman started the fight?” Now? I’ve been saying it all along, dipshit. And you tell me to stop being a moron? Work on your reading comprehension and we’ll talk about me being a moron, doc.
Where the hell is your evidence that Martin started the fight? Oh, I forgot: Zimmerman says so. And clearly we can trust the guy who has every motivation to spin his story to stay outta jail, and it’s not like he has any history of violence in his past or anything, right? Sorry, but Zimmerman’s injuries don’t mean much: plenty of people have started fights and ended up on the side with more injuries. The prosecution’s theory of the case makes more sense to me. It’s OK if doesn’t make sense to you, but I think you need to explain why Zimmerman got outta his car if he didn’t want some kind of confrontation, why he would try and chase Martin, how Martin could completely elude Zimmerman in an area less than the size of a football field, why Martin– having gotten away from the guy chasing him– would come back and attack Zimmerman, and why Martin is using language so cliched it might as well come from a Shane Black film? Got any reasonable explanations for any of these, do ya? ‘Cause I ain’t seeing any.
For the umpteenth time, you can start a fight without touching the other person. It’s clearly the law and you don’t seem to wanna acknowledge that for some reason. Why is that?
Let’s go back to the hypothetical about us on the sidewalk and me being a jerk and a bully and blocking your way– with no physical touching at all. You never did answer that question, and I suspect it’s because it shatters your “it only matters who touched who first” worldview. You tellin’ me that since there’s no physical contact at all, you gotta put up with my shenanigans? You’d never be justified in pushing me outta the way? The cops would just have to shrug and stand idly by while I blocked your way? Seriously? And the comparison between protesters and whatnot is pretty inapposite. Zimmerman was not some protester or anything. In my hypothetical, neither am I. So what’s your answer?
This just gets sadder and sadder. Today’s new reports say that Mr. Zimmerman is sorry about the death , but that, ” It was God’s plan.” Words fail me …….
John is 200% percent on it. Just to add to what you said nobody calls a person they never met “an asshole that always get away” then gets out there car talking in a mr rogers/ned flanders voice. Thats not realistic especially from some who has a violent past(ie the ex fiancee, the bouncer incident, and the resisting arrest charge)plus there are actual neighbors of the community who say he messed with them. That alter boy role isnt working for me. Like John has said many times Gz got out of the car belligerent and mad because of all the break ins, and ran up on him aggressively and tm stood his ground and tried to defend himself. I dont know all the specifics but I know gz did not approach that kid calmy and one thing led to another. Listen to his story he got out the car walked a few feet and then went back to the car, what was the point of even getting out the car.Like john said who the hell says “homie” anymore. The total dialogue sounds like some 1996 boys in the hood menace to society bullshyt. Its 2012.