One thing to add about coverage of Gaza’s’ rockets is the popularity of the phrase “thousands of rockets.” To cite one of many examples, Joe Klein writes for Time (6/9/10):
There is reason to treat Hamas as an enemy of Israel; thousands of rockets fired at Israeli civilians attest to that.
If you described the threat of rockets from Gaza in terms of lives lost, it would sound much less impressive: Rockets fired from Gaza have killed some 16 people in Israel, going back to 2001. It’s difficult to present that as a legitimate rationale for killing more than 3,000 Gazan civilians over the same time period.
If you describe the problem in terms of rockets launched, though, it sounds much more serious. Who wouldn’t take extreme action to stop thousands of potentially deadly attacks?
The problem is, if you’re going to describe Palestinian attacks on Israel that way, shouldn’t you describe Israeli attacks on Gaza the same way? How many bombs and bullets do you have to drop or fire before you kill 3,000 civilians? Surely some enterprising reporter with good sources in the Israeli military could make a credible ballpark estimate of the amount of ordnance used by Israel on Gaza, and then stories discussing the conflict could include a line like, “Israel, which has fired millions of rounds of ammunition into Gaza….” Or however many the total turns out to be.
Until they have that figure, however, perhaps journalists could stick to giving the number of lives lost on each side as a means of conveying the degree of threat each faces.
Actually the number of Israeli munitions spent in Gaza is likely in the tens of millions. Recall the Ma’ariv report that in the first few days of the Second Intifada the Israeli army fired one million bullets and other projectiles into Gaza and the West Bank, and that was when Israel was far more restrained in its actions in the West Bank than it is today in Gaza.
I happen to agree with the author, Israel has used excessive force against the Palestinians. But the authors reasoning needs to be tweaked. He states that the rockets killed 16 Israelis while Israel, in response killed as many as 3000 Palestinians. But the author forgot to tell us that the excessive force was also in response to the 1000 deaths caused by suicide bombers from the occupied territories, not just the rocket attacks.
Just a bunch of big bullies……..and getting away with it in the 21st century……
Thank god someone is making the comparisons…
1000 killed…accorded to B’Tselem, there have been 490 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians since 2000. Not 1000.
And 932 Palestinian minors (children) killed by Israeli forces. Twice as many Palestinian kids have been killed by Israel as all Israelis killed by Palestinians. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp That does not include the Gaza War…which not only killed numerous children, but also maimed them, burned them, etc.
When we look at total Palestinians killed, the number is much greater. Nearly 5000 (4,791) killed by Israeli forces. That only goes through mid-2008 too. Does not include the Gaza War which added around 1500 more to the tally.
BTW, the population of Israel is 7.3 million. The population of the Gaza Strip is 1.6 million. Population of West Bank? 2.5 million. So the Palestinians, have roughly half the population, yet have suffered around 10x the deaths… not to mention all of the other suffering from being occupied/prisoners.
Thank you, Jim, for helping us keep our sanity and counteract the NYT! Every time I read it, on this topic as in so many others, I feel Orwell is rolling in his grave…
Do you think that if they had better rockets, or more of then they would not have killed more Israelis? The argument you make is that the rockets are nothing. Hamas must must be sending them up there to treat the Israelis to a fireworks display because they want to be friends so much.
This is the same silliness as the guy who gets shot while robbing a house and tries to blame the homeowner because he did not steal anything yet.
The force Israel uses is proportional to whatever will get the job done of ensuring the Palestinians stop with terrorism. The force probably will escalate over time if nothing works, that is the nature of war, and that is what this is, and … it is war because Hamas’ purpose in existing is to destroy Israel.
If Israel’s purpose invading Gaza was to stop the rockets and suicide bombers …
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE ROCKETS AND THE SUICIDE BOMBER … please? Why do they do this?
Sara… According to B’tselem as many as 727 Israeli civilians were killed from 2000-2008 (Gaza Strip+West Bank+Israel) and 4860 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces (Gaza Strip+West Bank+Israel). You and I are in agreement, we both believe Israel is using disproportionate force, broke a string of international laws, and committed war crimes. If Israel wanted to put an end to the barrage of rocket attacks, then they could have resumed the cease fire (truce). The Israeli government admitted that Hamas never fired a rocket during the 6 month truce in 2008. However, it is paramount that we do not inflate the numbers in order to expose Israeli brutality. This will only hurt our cause.
This is a reasonable argument, but clearly conducted by the people who haven’t lived under the rocket fire. I have, and I don’t know why Israelis do not advertise the facts about life in Shderot and Ashkelon – cities under rocket attacks – more: every second child in Shderot is in therapy because of their anxiety, panic attacks, and other disorders caused by constant sirens and running to shelters. People abandon their homes, just walk away from them, it’s impossible to sell a house in Shderot, and everybody who purchased something there is facing a hard choice: to stay in a house whose value is zero or to walk away from it. People cannot live their lives, move around, this constant psychological pressure makes the whole cities gloomy and depressed.
No country in the world would have put up with such life for their people. And Israelis at that provide ambulances for medical emergencies to Gaza civilians, especially women and children, treat them in hospitals, teach them in schools, and supply electricity and water.
I have lived 40 km from Gaza for 10 years, it’s scary.
I appreciate the views from B-Shevait on the ground even at 40 km. But how do you feel about a cease fire and the idea of talking rather than shooting? What was the result of the IDF operations? Did the rockets stop?
Bravo!
There’s a reason they have only killed 16 – there is a lot of empty land in the south of Israel. It is sheer luck that over 20,000 rockets and mortars have not killed many more than 16.
“Although the vast majority of these rockets have landed on empty ground, scores have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of these projectiles should not be underestimated.” – Amnesty International.
So, Hamas is less adept at purchasing and building weapons and less adept at organizing their populace to build and use shelters. And for this reason they are to be excused for firing those rockets? I’ll remember to use that excuse next time I decide to sit on my front porch and fire blindly into my neighborhood. Its OK officer, I’m a lousy shot.
And how many Palestinians have died in the Fatah versus Hamas struggle power struggle? You all need to read “Son of Hamas” by Mosab Hassan Yousef.
“6000” rockets fired into Israel and counting(thank God they are lousy shots and few have died so far from this method).Suicide bombers……. So many wounded and killed.But it would not matter if Israel’s enemies fired a million rockets and killed one, while Israel fired one and killed 100.This is Endless attack.Israel is for the most part reactionary.If she wanted to kill all Palistinians( as Hamas would like to do to the Jews)….she would,and could.She wants peace.But She will continue to react. And Her attacks will be more successful than her terrorist foes.And innocents will die as the terrorists retreat behind the skirts of woman and children hoping for Israeli respite.
What utter nonsense! What does it matter which side killed and maimed more people? In my humble
opinion, they are equally responsible for this carnage, because the violent actions of one side feed the
violent actions of the other and effectively all of the victims of both sides are victims of both sides.
Killing, in the service of hate or revenge, of even one innocent child is a monstrous act. The monstrosity
of both sides by its magnitude has become horrific, and “keeping score” just adds fuel to this fire.
Congratulations FAIR — in the name of “accuracy”, it seems to me that you’ve just become a party to this
carnage.
i’m not an anti-semite and don’t believe in gods but where in the old testament does it say god’s chosen are above receiving criticism?
The responsibility for this violence (as in any historical conflict) must fall mostly to those who exercise control over the region. As the occupier of Gaza, it is Israel’s responsibility to ensure not only its own security but the security and quality of the lives of the occupied. Any comparison of the state-sponsored violence to that of a few rag-tag insurgents is a false equivalence. And it is extremely offensive to thinking humans when you attempt to justify Israel’s collective punishment of Gazans by pointing to a few unstable individuals on the other side. There is no justification that excuses the actions of the Isreali government.
Andrew –
While I appreciate your position that both sides are responsible for the violence there, the original article is after a different point. It does matter, at least to me, that the statistics are very commonly reported in such a way that it makes the Palestinians look as bad as possible. This is the nature of propaganda and I think FAIR does a pretty good job at exposing it in our media. We can’t hope to make any progress towards peace in the region when one side is glorified and the other demonized
If I was a terrorist…… Working away this night in Palestine building rockets to kill whomever they landed on,I would know in my heart that even though I am a stone cold killer.Even though I hope they land on a hospital loaded with Jewish babies.Even though I have not a shred of humanity in me.Even though I try to I kill and kill and kill…i know that some of you out there will make excuses for me.Will support me.Will even condone what I do.Because you live in the land of grey.Where nothing is black and white.Where all is up for discussion no matter how horrible.If I were a terrorist you would be worth more than gold to me.
Some of you really need to understand and read the Hamas charter lets say.FAIR staff as well.Because i get the distinct feeling a lot of you think they are just joshing.If I were a terrorist…you would be my valued rubes.And I would thank you.
Palestinians are the bad boys dispite sitting on homeland getting killed at a 300/1 ratio. Is this what
your saying michael?
No Macbags.i see this as a political tragedy where the Palistinian people are pawns in a game of hatred.Do you remember when Clinton in his first term brought the Israeli leaders and” yes-sir Ara-rat” together to once and for all settle this?.Clinton tels the story that it was a done deal.Huge tracts of land and full rights handed over by Israel.And a forward looking process to help the transition to peace.As the moment came to sign- Yassir’s demands all of a sudden, out of no-where, skyrocketed into the stratosphere.He wanted all the land- and Jews out.He began quoting ancient texts.You see his hold on power was tied to his battle.Not his search for peace.Clinton was heartbroken.Read his memoirs.With peace Palistine can flower again.With a charter for the destruction of a people, just don’t count on it.
Also a good start would be an end to the indoctrination of hatred toward Jews of Arab children.Even Saturday cartoons have Arabs killing Jews in some of the countries.Israely children are raised to hope and pray for peace but be prepared if they are again attacked.Hama teaches its children to prepare to attack and hope and pray for the destruction of the Jews.Very different philosophies.
Michael, here you can read a slightly different take on those negotiations:
http://www.slate.com/?id=2064500
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2001/aug/09/camp-david-the-tragedy-of-errors/
The offer wasn’t all that generous, and it was unclear if Barak could even deliver since it was unlikely that he would get support back in Israel. Arafat also feared that what would happen if he accepted was that the concessions he made would define a starting point for new negotiations where he would have to give up even more.
As for those peaceful Israeli children:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/zionism-or-colonialism-1.41142
Thank you, Andrew Singer: “. . .the violent actions of one side feed the violent actions of the other. . .”keeping score” just adds fuel to this fire.”
This has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has to do with a dynamic as seemingly relentless and bereft of ideology as the law of gravity: endless cycles of reaction and retribution.
If my own children faced what some Israeli children face, or what Gazan children face, could I resist the rage, the temptation to take bloody sides? I don’t know. I’m only human.
Yet some Israelis and some Gazans do have the courage to stand up and declare “Enough!”
I would like to believe I too would have such courage in the face of such danger, suffering, loss and grief. Also the courage to stand up to the endless screech of rightwing bigots and oh-so-religious haters among my own people — regardless of which side the border checkpoint I live on.
Sitting here comfortably in the US, we should at least have the courage and will to join voices with those souls living every moment on the front lines — those sufficiently brave to insist, “Enough.”
Who among us will demand that US government policy and news media stand equally with them, and say, “Enough”?
To Thomas Palm
As far as zionist hatred being placed in Jewish children against Arab neighbors I would say it does exist.But in very small numbers.Certainly it is not the norm.Just the opposite.Yet in the Islamic countries surrounding Israel- hatred for Israel is certainly the norm.Deep ,flourishing,and exploited.It is the very lifeblood of the political leaders of those states.
Thanx for all the info on camp David..I do not mean to re argue the salient points.Suffice it to say i still feel that till the end of his life Arafats power base was dependant on giving not an inch to the” idea” of israel.I see no real proof in anything to dissuade me on that.And Israel will never hand the dagger to its enemies and present their throats in blind trust.
michael e, it is Israel that occupies Palestine, not the other way around. Don’t you think Israel soldiers at checkpoints, tearing down houses, killing people may have more to do with the hatred? And I’m talking about Palestine, not the surrounding states.
Thomas
If Palestinians did occupy Israel… I dare say not a jew would be left alive.So yes The apples and orange debate is pretty clear here.The two sides are certainly very different in how they would handle being “the one in charge” .Without checkpoints and walls and fortifications I shudder to think of Israels fate,at the hands of these people.And The reasons for the “occupation”are well known.Blame the Arab invaders of Israel over several wars.Blame the suicide bombers.Blame Hamas who represents the Palestinian people and calls for destruction of israel and death to Jews.Or blame the UN.Or blame Israel’s claim to areas they have lived in for thousands of years.Blame and kill.Kill and blame.
Thomas i tell you that I truly believe If Israel and world Jews all moved to Mars to start a colony ,These people would the next day start funding to build the rockets to go to Mars to hunt them there.You delude yourself in thinking all wars are local.This war trickles down also from those who believe the conflict is their historic jihad.
“If Palestinians did occupy Israelâ┚¬Ã‚¦ I dare say not a jew would be left alive.”
That’s pretty much bullshit. Your xenophobia towards Arab people make further discussion pointless.
You article is clearly based on a rediculous premise. The fact that the rockets are ineffectual does not mean that the purpose and intent of the rockets is not the same. It is to kill people. If they had scud missiles they would use those and kill hundreds or thousands.
Do you really think if Mexico shot 1000 rockets into texas but ONLY killed 12 people the US would say ” Hey since they only killed 12 people we will lay off? ” Absolutely not!!!
DO we have to wait until 1000’s of people die to make it legitimate for people to defend itself? Nonsense.
As for your numbers of Palestenians killed in the Gaza intrusion, you are reporting the number they gave the goldstone report, of which only 600 can be confirmed.of the 1300 or so dead that was reported by Paletenianian’s about 400 were found to still be alive, another 200 didn’t exist and another 100 or so unconfirmed. Of the remaining 350 were terrorists!!!! I am sad and heartbroken over the 250 civilians but if you are using them as human shields then Israel has little choice!
This reporting is anything but “Fair”!!!!
First Thomas i am not a xenophobe.My xenophobia as you call it- does not extend very far into “the people”. I believe People all over the world simply want a good life .We are all basically the same.I do not believe we are born to hate.I think the Palestinian people would be willing to live,share life,intermarry with jews, forget these endless squabbles that rob them of happiness,and i feel the same of Israel.Iranians are good people I believe.I do not feel the same for the Iranian Government who may be clinically insane.North Koreans I am sure are loving caring people. Their government is far different.Well the Palistinian leadership(Hamas) is simply not on that track.Please do not misinterpret my words to think I somehow feel the Palestinian people are somehow genetically encoded to this.If I have given that notion in my use of the words “these people” I am sorry.By refering to them in this way i am of course speaking of the radical elements that hold sway and in fact rule so many of the surrounding countries including Palestine.Please understand that their charters are simply indefensible.That and the words of the other radical Muslims groups lead me to believe that mercy for Jews is not high on the list for them.Tell me…If Israel fell to an attack that left Hamas or the all to numerous Radical muslim leadership groups in control of Israel.As in when France fell to Germany……What do you percieve would be the result?I leave it to you.
michael e, look up what happened when the Arab league seized Jerusalem during the war of 1948 and compare to the Jewish conquest of Lydda. I don’t think the Arab side was any worse although ethnic cleansing is never pretty. There certainly wasn’t any massacre of Jews back then when the Arab side had a chance. I suppose half a century of Jewish occupation has radicalized some Palestinians, though, but Israel can’t go on oppressing the Palestinians with the excuse that the Palestinian hate them for what they have done during the previous occupation.
Thomas
I will hope then that all things being equal that all charters and official words of hatred against the Jews will soon be thrown down.Likewise the Palestinians.And that Israel after a time of peace will feel less threatened and real talks can begin on how to live together in peace.Whatever that may entail- and where ever that may lead.
I remember being in Ireland during the years of “the troubles”.To see the end of the bombings, and killing, and the resulting peaceful co-existence today is the way forward.My father used to say “the old men die”.He meant that with them will go a lot of the hatreds.His generation hated the Japanese.That idea is remote to the new generations.The cycle of hatred must end.
I am a Scot.Need I tell you the ages of hatred and invasion between England and Scotland.Me I love England.And the English.It all seems so remote now.I would hope for that for those people.
Israelis are warm and loving people, family is everything for most of them, and all their kids have to go to the army. They have no choice, boys and girls. When they have to resort to any violent action, it’s more painful for them than for the ones this action is aimed at – they have never seen violence at home, they have not signed a contract and are not paid. If you are informed people, you can look up the statistics of violent crimes in Israel – it’s unbelievingly low, especially when you think that half of the people walking around carry some weapon. They realize that violence cannot be justified, and that it creates a vicious circle. But every time they try any civilized approach, it’s misinterpreted as a sign of weakness and triggers more violence. They cannot afford showing how terrified they in fact are – 5 million Jews on a tiny piece of land surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslems who openly call for their massacre. They are not in the position to initiate cease-fire since in their eyes they are this bespectacled boy being threatened by huge and ruthless bullies. He is cold inside, but must keep the facade.
Think of the Mexico-Texas scenario. Every day 20-30 rockets are fired at Texas from the Mexican side, but the area is agricultural, and they only killed 12 Americans (among them women, children, old people) so far. They promise to keep firing the rockets. Won’t be any military response by the US?
The kids in the settlements within the Gaza rockets range wet their beds every night, at any age.
And the ‘occupation’ is the resolution of the UN, not Israel’s fault. They also considered Madagascar…
So the collective punishment of the Palestinians is justified because the kids are wetting the bed?
I think Hamas made it pretty clear that they were willing the halt their rocket fire for a slight easement of the blockade (that is what happened). So why do you argue that the only way to stop the rocket fire is to further squeeze the Palestinians? That will not bring about an end to this conflict — the rockets and weapons will always get in.
First of all to B-Shevait ..”.Well said sir”.
To Roy Harper………..Did I actually hear you say Hamas has agreed to stop the rockets?Remember Roy we are talking about a Terrorist group thats charter calls for death to the Jews. Lets please recall history here.Have they ever kept their word?Are they an honest partner in anything you can think of?if Israel can come up with a formula .A formula that would benefit Hamas to go along with…and in turn stop the “rockets”.Yes it may buy some time and give a respite.But turn your back on that mad dog you have just signed an agreement with and he will leap for you in an instant.How many times must israel be invaded,only to push her attackers back?Then we start the cycle of the attacking armies begging for the conquered lands to be given back……. only to attack again from those same lands?Or barring that, terror attacks constant and without mercy.
You say the rockets will always get in?That is the most honest thing you said.Yes they will.No matter what israel does ,or gives up.Or what Hamas says.Actually though …the blockade has helped hugely in that dept.Israel can NEVER put down her gaurd with Hamas.NEVER
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