The end of a Wall Street Journal article (7/14/11) on a new report on Afghan deaths highlights the peculiarity of their culture:
Of civilian casualties, 2 percent were caused by night raids, slightly down from last year, with 30 fatalities, the report says. Night raids have been a contentious issue between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and U.S. military officers and civilian leaders. The raids are sensitive in Afghanistan, because foreign soldiers burst into civilian homes, where strangers are unwelcome in the country’s conservative Islamic traditions.
What a strange place. I guess in a civilized society, when a foreign soldier bursts into your home in the middle of night brandishing a weapon, you offer them dinner.
You can’t make this stuff up, can you?
Well, *they* can … but you know what I mean.
Not only is that Completely Bizarre(tm), but the characterisation is false as Islamic culture is congenial to strangers in your home almost to the point of being obsequious. Of course, strangers that are there to kill you might not be quite as welcome. How odd.
Poor benighted boobs. Reminds me of the authors of Amendment III to the US Constitution.
The IDF also bursts into Palestinian houses in the middle of the night, and put people in jail for a long long time. See thenation.com/TheNewIsraeliLeft
Yes, very strange indeed. Imagine that as compared to say…hmmm…Amerikans who welcome everybody – particularly those yielding weapons – into their homes after their front doors have been kicked in.
Is this what’s known as automatic writing? Do they have editors at the Wall St. Journal? So many questions, so little time.
Off hand, I can’t think of any culture in which those armed and kicking in one’s home’s front door would be welcome as house guests. I used to think that happened only in Communist countries, but nowadays it seems to be an Amerikan trend as well. Oh, well….
i’m skeptical of the figure of 30 dead. it probably comes from a nato report. unfortunately, i cant remember the sources or the exact figures, but the gist of what i read was that nato had investigated only a very small percentage of the night raid casualties and only gave figures for those that they had certified were civilians [ie infants] in the few incidents they had investigated. i think there may be many more civilians killed in night raids. nato notoriously underestimates civilian casualties according to international and afghan human rights groups who actually go out and do investigations, but the nato figures are what gets reported as hard data in most media
Well if NATO is allowed to target civilians without comment then why can’t civilians just sit back an accept their place and tolerate such violent intrusions to the point of dying.
There’s nothing strange about it! I have seldom been welcoming to strangers who break into my house in the middle of the night brandishing weapons. I consider it a perfectly normal response to be somewhat skeptical of their motives.
I wonder if it is any different if it were Taliban bursting in. Actually it is.If THEY come to the door the culture denotes that they must be let in and given sustenance,shelter and aid. Hence cometh those big footed Americans searching for taliban house guests, or straight up combatants.I wonder how many of the night deaths have resulted from shootouts or some other form of engagement?. Lets remember this is a war zone. Not a vacation resort town. Every death matters(especially innocents).But in scheme of things deaths have been remarkably low. Pointing to the command structure ,training ,and mentality of our troops
michael e wrote: If THEY come to the door the culture denotes that they must be let in and given sustenance,shelter and aid.
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That’s pretty darn inaccurate. A portion of the population willingly supports the insurgency. A portion also opposes it or is neutral. But nobody is shrugging their shoulders and saying “Oh well. I guess you guys are guests because it’s my culture. Have some food and shelter and put my family at risk for a drone strike. Tea?”
How much time did you spend in Afghanistan researching this?
John it has little to do with supporting the insurgency.And it is not cultural actually.It is religious.CIA studies of OBL proves he has been the guest of a long string of people.
Did you see the film of the captured Police officers executed by the Taliban today?Just as lethal as a drone strike wouldnt you say?.And their intent to kill all of their prisoners is pretty graphic.Little different from Gitmo.
@ michael e: So you spent absolutely no time in Afghanistan researching the issue, then?
Saying that it’s mandatory– whether due to culture or religion– to provide food and shelter to insurgent “guests” is inaccurate. The insurgents know who will welcome them in and who won’t. They generally don’t have to go around relying on the kindness of strangers. You seem to think that every Afghan who gets a knock on the door by an armed group of insurgents is bound, culturally and/or religiously, to let them in and feed them. This perception is a distortion of the concept of hospitality in Pashtun tribal culture, and in the Muslim world in general. Many who get that knock on the door are known to be supporters in the first place. Some who get that knock are intimidated or coerced into cooperating. Some who got that knock were beaten or killed when they refused to play along; however, there are at least a few who refused and suffered no consequences. It ain’t near as black and white as you seem to want to paint it.
There are several dozen books written about this subject that could clarify it. In fact, the Army and the Marine Corps put out 2 or 3 publications each to educate soldiers and leaders about Afghan culture. Clarifying misconceptions like, “All Afghans will provide safe harbor to the Taliban,” is pretty darn important to the war effort, it would seem.
I have never been there.And I dont think they have a choice when men come armed in the middle of the night.I would think under those conditions 100% allow them in(another reason for those damn americans coming round)The issue is probably after that.Do they run for help or to give up information.What i have read is NO.And it is a religious issue.Has there a long religious and cultural history of taking in strangers?I have read that yes their is.That it goes on is obvious.Our reaction also obvious.The question is how did OBL hide for so long in plain sight.Why did no one come forward?There are others bouncing about in hiding now.This is deeper than just sympathizers.”They”seem to be able to trust many beyond that.The reason I put forward is the one I have read that seems to make sense.
michael e wrote: Do they run for help or to give up information.What i have read is NO.And it is a religious issue.
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Are you sure this is what you read? You sure it isn’t what you wanna believe about a people and place you have no idea about?
And there are plenty of reasons, aside from religion, not to report being a victim of insurgent crimes: (1) your neighbors or fellow villagers who are sympathetic to the insurgency will rat you out; (2) the Afghan officials you go to are corrupt and will want a bribe to take action; (3) the Afghan bureacracy you go to is bound to have insurgent sympathizers in its ranks; (4) you don’t wanna be seen talking to ISAF forces; and (5) you’re too danged busy working pretty much from dusk to dawn trying to eek out a living for you and your family from a small farm with almost no modern technology, in an already very dry country that is in the midst of a pretty bad drought and where irrigation is spotty at best, to bother with any of it once the bad guys leave. That’s not an all-inclusive list, by the way.
Did it ever occur to you that OBL picked the people he was sheltering with? And that he sheltered with those must sympathetic to him and his cause? You don’t really think he was knocking on doors at random and hoping for the best, do you? You know he was living in freakin’ caves for awhile, right?
Well first of course I am sure that there are those in these areas that are not bound by the strictures of their religious.If on the other hand you are trying to say that the Afghans and their Islamic beliefs are not the most elemental and primary reasoning for their culture I would say I disagree.
As far as OBL.Word is that his journeys that have now been revealed in the treasure troths of files captured in the raid are not resulting in mass arrests.Or many at all.Now you may believe this is due to Pakistany duplicity.I would agree but……..It has become clear that he also survived in plain sight.Among non combatants.People who in their sense…did nothing wrong.That was the reason he was so hard to catch. All taliban conduits were being watched.He moved outside that. Interestingly we now know he was “located”by a Dr who was giving free vaccinations(a CIA ruse).He actually entered the compound and retrieved DNA(blood).You would think he would be a hero.He is now under arrest,and in danger for his life from many sides.It is clear these pashtun areas have given aid and comfort(and continue to)to our enemies.The Pakistan government as well.That their are many reasons for this is obvious.That religion plays a huge part as it does all things in that part of the world is a good bet.
michael e: Well first of course I am sure that there are those in these areas that are not bound by the strictures of their religious.
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Look, you’re not getting my point here: it is NOT some religious duty for a non-combatant villager to help out a group of armed insurgents who show up at his door. And even in Pashtun culture, it’s NOT some blanket duty either: if a group of Tajik or Uzbek insurgents showed up at a Pashtun’s door seeking shelter and aid, they would most definitely NOT be welcomed in. And even among the Pashtun culture, there are at least 4 tribes that absolutely hate each other and probably could not count on the other’s uncoerced cooperation.
You sure you’re actually reading these facts? You sure you just ain’t making assumptions based on what you think Afghanistan is all about?
If your thoughts are correct, then our CIA analysts are wrong.They believe this interwoven web of support is based on the the Afghan brew of Islamic faith primarily.(And yes the koran is specific about sheltering fellow muslims.)Tribal ties and wars secondarily,and fear and profit lastly.If your thoughts are correct(and i hope they are)then we should be able to quickly round up the remaining leaders of the Taliban with dispatch.They are constantly on the move by most accounts.If they are moving through questionable areas it would seem to be easy.(Notice the millions of dollar bounties accomplished little with OBL even though for years he was on the move.) .
Of course having armed combatants at your door leaves little room for debate.I guess the question is not do the people in this part of the world give succor to our enemy’s.They do.The question is why.You pionted out inter tribal hatred as a deterrence to the Taliban collating their power base..Remember our CIA trusted that before as OBL was allowed to slip out of Tora bora.
@michael e: Why don’t you cite a source or something? You seem to be taking bits and pieces from what sources are out there and putting them forth with an anti-Muslim slant. Yep, all Muslims support the Taliban alright; that’s gotta be it. Why else would we not have won this war already? I mean, it’s just an insurgency and we have the most technologically-advanced and powerful military in the world, right? It’s gotta be religion. Never mind that insurgencies are notoriously difficult to put down– it’s gotta be religion. Never mind that the Afghan government we work with is frought with corruption and incompetence– it’s gotta be religion. Etc.
Cite a source. I pointed you in a direction of Army and Marine Corps publications that explain Afghan culture in, what I believe to be, a reasonably detailed while not overly-academic way. Google “army afghan culture” and you’ll find my sources. You’re reading something else, apparently. What? ‘Cause it ain’t anything I’m familiar with and these conclusions you’re drawing seem pretty-much made up based on what you think of the world.
Well first John i have the privilege ,and honor of being able to speak with some ranking individuals and
others who i think are pretty knowledgeable on these matters. Certainly my understanding is not first hand.I do rely on books,and publications, and my talks with them to understand better these matters. Read a piece(i went within your framework) called “We’ve met the enemy in Afghanistan and he’s changed”.It speaks of the single minded adherence to conquer in the name of Shariah law all of Afghanistan..It talks of three fourths of the land area being now under Tali influence.Anti Muslim?No i am anti Taliban ,which is a modern perversion of islamic faith.They fight not against a corrupt government(though they are corrupt).They fight to the death- to enforce this twisted faith.Study Sharia law.Then understand what part of the country is falling under this spell.I think that is the clearest understanding we can have of our enemy and those that support them.Now the only argument again is what amount of the population supports them.From those who stay silent to those who give their lives.I would say our government is HOPING it is better than it is.We still are fighting an enemy that hits and then fades back into the populace.
By the way John Im not sure if I have made this clear but….I feel we have accomplished what it was we went there to do.We have armed and trained over 200 thousand Afghan security forces.This after driving the Taliban from their terrorist bases and killing OBL.Shiek Omar would be nice in a bag but at some point we must leave.Nation building here does not look as if it will work.I look forward to leaving this pit.We (the American people)must be told the truth about why we cant just declare victory and go home.If we leave and the Taliban flow in behind us even though they are outnumbered 20-1,then we need to cut our losses and leave.We have given them a chance.It is up to them.Is the question the safety of Pakistani nukes?Why is it that the information flow from our president,our secretary of state- in so non existent.?And where the hell is Hilary come to think of it?
@michael e: These imaginary sources you speak of sound awesome.
And the one source you do put forth says nothing about the Taliban’s ability to get support from your average non-combatant villager.
I don’t disagree with you that the Taliban want to impose their view on Afghanistan. I just think you don’t have anything other than a superficial understanding of Afghan culture coupled with a some sort of bias against the Islamic religion. All of your “facts” you put forth seemed culled from larger context to support your view of the world. Like I said before: It ain’t as black and white as you wanna paint it.
Well no doubt my understanding is superficial.I have read and discussed this with some high placed hombres.But i do not live there.Even most of our so called top experts are in the end “superficial”in their understanding of this part of the world.
Are my thoughts tempered by anti islamic feelings?Well I am full bore “anti”- sharia law toting, Islamic fundamentalist, Taliban types…… Fer sure your rootin tootin I am.Past that i have good friends who are Muslim.
As far as the average non combatant and there feelings toward the Taliban that is a hard nut.But we do know the talibans influence is being felt in three fourths of the country.And that does not happen in a vacume.But I hope our Afghan friends are just that.And that what you seem to be saying(the taliban are reviled and the shunned enemy of the majority of the populace)makes me hope i am wrong.And with their help the Taliban will soon be on their way out for good
Yankee Come Home ! Stop invading other countries and killing their people !
Yankee come home! Stop invading other countries(who wrecked your largest city killing over 3000)….and stop killing their trained terrorists!Um Rob we should come home because we have helped these people as far as we can with our time, our blood ,and our wealth.We have accomplished more than we went there to do.It is now up to them. All our prayers for the innocent who have died and their loved ones. Collateral damage is a big term for pain. Where evil exists good men will rise up to fight it. And good people will die.Especially when the evil cowards hide among the non combatants. Please none of this moral equivalence between our soldiers and the Taliban.