Hmmm… can I get two votes?
For the record, the results are currently 94 percent for liberal control, 1 percent for conservative-pandering and 5 percent for control by the rich.
Peter Hart
Comments
FAIR is the national progressive media watchdog group, challenging corporate media bias, spin and misinformation.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
It is pretty hilarious, isn’t it Mr. Stephens? It’s so transparent.
Can it really be that no one ever stops to think where so many people might have gotten the impression that mainstream news is liberally biased? Could it be that the mainstream news they listen to every day has told them that? Over and over and over… Could it be that many people have no idea what a liberal is or what we are thinking? Because the thoughts of the truly liberal never get covered at all?
It’s all very nicely orchestrated, isn’t it? Don’t call it a conspiracy if you don’t want to, but the monied interests, the owners of the “free” press, have always worked nicely together to see that things are seen in a certain way…
Of course it’s biased. Why would they list the liberals at the top of the poll if it weren’t. The truth is, the news is biased because so much of it is in the hands of a few rich people, and of course on the whole, the media does pander to the conservatives. Talk radio is about 99% conservative blow hards. Television is heavily biased in favor of “conservatives,” I put that word in quotation marks becaue those who profess to be conservative are indeed radical reactionaries. The Kansas City Star, my local newspaper, leans heavily in favor of conservative writers to the letters column. The STAR has purchased other newspapers throughout the area, they are all biased in favor of Republicans. My nearest local paper is the Lee’s Summit Journal, a paper that black balled me for criticizing George W. Bush before he invaded Iraq. I turned his words on him. I wrote, “Yes, it’s true, he is an evil man, and yes he has weapons of mass destruction, and yes, he has the means to deliver them. It was true of Bush but not of Saddam Hussein. Anyone who was half awake and willing to do the research knew that Bush and his lackeys were all lying at the 2003 State of the Union Message. That paper frequently prints letters from hard right-wing conservative state legislators but refuse to publish letters from me and other liberal writers. We need more papers in this area so we can have a balance. We need a liberal paper that reaches the majority of people in the Kansas City area because the STAR and their satellite paper are all biased. Talk radio in Kansas City is 100% neo-conservative, Limbaugh, Hannity, and their ilk. Public radio is the only non-biased radio that broadcasts unbiased commentary.
The correct answer is “all of the above”. The reality is that “liberals” and “conservatives” (the ones that register at all on the radar of the corporate press) are bickering factions of the rich. Factional differences can get ugly (see Protestans and Catholics) however, that doesn’t mean that there are significant ideological differences.
The “liberal media” is a boogie man ginned up by conservatives so that they have a convenient scapegoat when the message they insert into the media isn’t popular.
The conservative meme that NPR is a leftist/socialist mouthpiece is about as disingenuous a claim as anything I’ve ever heard. David Horowitz on Howard Zinn? Leftist my foot.
Is that a joke? Wait, wait…now I know how it feels to briefly go insane. Better now. Thanks.
I hate multiple choice questions where the correct answer does not appear and the only option is to choose the least incorrect. AKA, lesser-of-two-evils voting. Who is less evil, Satan or Lucifer? I pass.
The multiple choice question above is as meaningless as the multiple choice election ballots we see where the two institutional parties write the qualification laws for all others who wish to appear on a ballot.
That issue aside, polls only provide feedback to evaluate the efficacy of propaganda. Success is judged based on how much is parroted back to its purveyors.
From these results I would surmise the propaganda dissemination system is in tip top shape.
Life with these guys around is such a Loony-Toon. I wonder what the Guinness record is for holding your head between your legs and holding the “pucker”? Maybe it doesn’t matter…
How obvious is it that these “polls” are directed to the uninformed and are designed to keep them uninformed?
Of course we’re all assuming that this poll was actually taken, that people actually said what it is reported they said. Maybe, maybe not. If you own the media you can say anything… There is a reason that the little cowboy with the big guns moved so quickly to gut the FCC as soon as he took office. One of the first things on his agenda back in 2000, when he was first “elected.” It is an investment that has paid huge dividends.
It should go without saying that the results of online Web polls like this one are entirely meaningless–they do not reflect the opinions of anyone but the self-selected participants.
Stupid poll. Truth is…is that during the Obama run the media was very liberal.To the point of obstructionism. Since that it has swung right.We are probably now more balanced.More polarized than ever also. The ground swell to the right has been accomplished by the media witnessing the success of the right wing”blow hards”who have been so effective at destroying the Obama regime and his followers in the house and senate.So the wind blows this way and that.I always feel more comfortable with the media somewhere in the middle.So we can thank the Rush Limbaugh’s and the Sarah Palins for yelling loud enough at the press, that there is more than one way to go.
We know who is winning the war against the truth and it is the reactionary conservatives. Hands down.
Yes, Nightgaunt, yes. Say, where have you been? I recall that you were going to read some book(s) that were brought up here on FAIR blog. How’d that go?
Nightgaunt…….I would say the conservatives are winning because they ARE telling the truth! Reactionary?Yes absolutely.A reaction to a lurch to the left, that has proven disastrous.America is hearing both sides now.On one side, the so called loud mouths(often used here)on the right.And on the left- the bully pulpit of the president.America has listened and spoken.They will speak again in the next elections.Unless the polls change, the left will suffer its greatest defeat ever.Is it the blame of those on the right who speak for their beliefs?Is it the blame of “the people” who you will view as stupid cattle?Or could it be…..is it remotely possible that the left has been transcended BECAUSE of their beliefs, that simply have been found wanting by our population?
What I value most about media watchdogs, above all FAIR, is that they measure how accurately news organizations speak the TRUTH. Polling people about what they believe is biased is pointless. Bias is a purely subjective notion that cannot be measured.
The most ignorant people see the most bias around them, because bias is anything outside of their narrow perspective. Indeed, bias is a major obsession of the Fox News Corporation. You can even see it in Fox’s slogan: “fair and balanced.” You will notice that Fox makes no promise to be truthful. That seems to be fine with Fox’s most avid viewers, who seem not to want their precious biases to be challenged. As a result, they end up poorly informed. For evidence that watching Fox news correlates with ignorance, check out the U. of Maryland study at the website below:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/dec10/Misinformation_Dec10_rpt.pdf
Let’s get back to the business of fearlessly telling the truth, and let the whiners continue to obsess about bias.
Old news there, eh, E.P. Jacobsen? That FOX “news” is the de facto propaganda arm of the Republican Party has been known for quite some time. Stick around. At least one of their drones will be in here soon enough to defend the indefensible.
micheal e, I’m very curious where you get your notions of what a liberal is and why you think the news is liberal. Who told you about a “lurch to the left” for instance? Did you make that up or did you see it on “the news?” Please be careful with your terminology. And with your “beliefs” which seem to be a mask for good old fashioned ill-conceived ideology. Do you even read FAIR? Do you care at all about what’s being said, by who, and why? If you do, why don’t you speak directly to that? If you don’t, why are you talking? You mention Rush L. as if you find some credibility there, despite his continually proven lies. Why? Do you not know that, or do you not care? Is he the one that defines “liberal” for you? On what basis? If he has ever had a conversation with a liberal it’s not apparent in anything he says. But he’s an entertainer, of course. What’s your reason for saying what you do? Are you just entertaining yourself too? If you had any idea what liberals are actually thinking you would know that every election in America, including that of the very conservative “Obama regime” is a “defeat for the left.” Liberals don’t even make it onto the ballot.
I saw a chimpanzee walk upright the other day on TV. Unfortunately I also “saw” millions of Americans acting like right-wing chimpanzees in this poll.
Doug I wont agree with your premise that people like Rush are proven liars.They are proven effective counterpoints to leftist ideology,and that makes them liars in the eyes of true believers on the left.
I worked on Bill Clintons campaigns.I worked for Ralph Nader.I come from a political family.I am a recovering liberal.Half my family still is…liberal that is.(Did you know Rush Limbaughs grandfather was a Dem..a man Rush loved above all else?)So Im old school lib.I know every trick in the book and I seldom watch FOX(no time)I don’t need too much schooling in that direction.I well understand the highjacking of liberalism and its flaws that are simply not compatible with our capitalist system. When I hear Rush or Palin …they talk the language of truth(to me).Simple American values under the constitution.Obama?I correctly predicted that when his leftist agenda failed his base would have to say he was not left enough.And that he would go under cover.A formless blob.And ya know what?With his nature before you….you will still vote for him.And he knows it.
A liberal.
So all conservatives are apes?All who vote down this madness are the same?Evolved is synonymous with liberal huh?No elitist smell here
Hey michael e. Thanks for your rather answer. You have an interesting story. You haven’t answered my questions, but you’ve filled out your thoughts a bit. You have an odd take on truth though. Very curious. Especially for someone who is apparently interested in what FAIR is saying. What do you mean by “the language of truth (to me)?” If truth is relative it’s just opinion, isn’t it? So there’s no such thing as objective fact? And it’s only my “premise” that Rush tells lies? Nevermind the extensive documentation, it’s only my “premise” now? Then we can’t really have a conversation, can we? We can just throw barbs back and forth, me from my “leftist ideology” and you from… wherever you are that day? (Nader to Palin is a pretty big swing!) Isn’t that a pretty cynical take for someone who likes “simple American values,”? What are those values, exactly, if not anchored in provable, factual, truth — what used to be called common ground? Have you given up on facts? Is it all a battle of ideology and spin from here on out?
By the way, what is this “leftist agenda” I’ve heard so much about? I am curious. I don’t know any leftists who use that term or know what it’s supposed to mean. Did Rush make that up too?
Doug lots to talk about.
Rush…..An amazing man who is dead on in so much of what he says.You say he lies,and you ask that I comment, yet you don’t list these lies.So you start every sentence as libs are taught.In this way…..”Since it is common knowledge that Rush is a liar”….No no no that is not correct.This may fly on the left,but really it is disingenuous.What lies?I once spent a week tracking so called lies Rush told that appeared in a very popular book on him and i shot down almost every one.My articles on this were well received and debated.I do listen to him, and find him to be as truthful as they come in the world of political opinion and discourse.His values are well known and he balances against those values.His core values are rock solid.Those on the left believe having no core values makes you intrinsically a better dispensator of objective fact.When i say truth is relative- i am being kind….. to you.Of course it is not.I feel you are wrong on the left.Rush feels you are wrong.We…feel you are wrong.How much clearer can we be?We believe the fact are strongly on our side.Always have been.”We” believe what has worked to make this country the amazing land it is will always work.This president sees this country as an embarrassment that needs to be remade.Big difference there.
I recently listened to speeches of Kennedy’s.Amazing.He sounded exactly like a Reagan economist .He talked of lowering corporate and private taxes during a recession, and especially on the highest earners.A cut in social programs.Strong military.States rights over fed. Smaller government, and a strict adherence to the constitution.Free market capitalist principles.You ask how i can go from Nader/Clinton to Palin.My answer is i have not traveled as far as you may think.I am still socially very liberal.(I could care less about gay marriage for instance)But YOU have moved far to the left.Kennedy would not recognize Obama as a Dem.Nader is a hard core pragmatist.Clinton was also.Working with Ralph i felt he was a saint, but a politician without the needed flexibility.(Ron paul seems like that too.)Clinton had more grey matter than the last couple presidents slopped together,but man from the inside it was a swamp.That swamp is alive in washington on both sides of course,but I feel it grows quickly with the ideology of the left that wants ,needs,must have- larger more powerful Federal power..
Leftist agenda……….Today The left believes an empowered fed is smarter, and more able to conduct the affairs of peoples lives than they themselves are.This is hysterically funny if it were not so dangerous.They believe in the collective- over the individual rights.They believe in the redistribution of wealth,which necessarily would lead to government control.Control of free markets that would make them less able to compete. Control of the wealth of this country to be used by a government that has never proven it is able to do that effectively.The left believes in an explosion of social programs far beyond any safety net ever imagined ,that creates a circle of dependance and poverty.On a lesser scale they are forced by their special interest groups to spend the countries wealth on “pet”-unproven, unpopular projects like carbon taxes to combat global warming.Subsidizing of unions.If you are asking me why are they so wrong so much of the time it would take years.I guess it comes down to that they believe the man that can hand out the bread- will be the power.And the power is smarter than the serfs that clammer about. But Im rambling.Ask any pointed questions and i would love to do my best to answer them.Oh why am i on fair?I heard of fair at a time when I was furious at the horrible job the press did vetting OBAMA.They quite simple backed him and colluded with him to the point of obstructionism.Fair was not what i thought.It is simply a left wing mind fuck.With everyone in lock step.but I thought it may enjoy seeing another view.Usually I am wrong on that.
This is directed to michael “lets make this easyâ┚¬Ã‚¦Ãƒ¢Ã¢”š¬Ã‚¦Ãƒ¢Ã¢”š¬Ã‚¦Name 5 Arabs we can trust.Sorry to be a jerk [racist]” e. In order to spare Mr. Westendorp the trouble of responding to your request to “list the lies”, may I recommend that you read FAIR’s “Extra!”, dated July/August 1994, for all the evidence you need to demonstrate that Rush is not only persistently and arrogantly wrong, but a self-conscious liar. FAIR has been kind enough to keep this documentation on-line for easy reference. The title is “The Way Things Aren’t – Rush Limbaugh Debates Reality”. I understand that there is a book called “The Way Things Aren’t”, covering the same topic as the FAIR “Extra!” piece that I here cite for your consideration.
You’re welcome.
Donald the correction you missed was name 5 arab “leaders”we can trust.I still cant.
The book I spent weeks tearing to shreds was partly the one mentioned.It was a tiresome exercise and i wont repeat it here.Your article(you asked me to read) is chocked full of half truths.Half quotes. Quotes taken out of context.And context taken out of quotes.And for all of that i must point out that Rush talks 4 hours a day,5 days a week.For what is it… more than 25 years?I have to ask the question…IS THAT ALL YA GOT?All those pajama clad Libs living in the basement watchdogging every word in preparation for spin and counter spin.For Gods sake man I could find that many mistakes in one speech Obama gives.And that is on telle prompter not off the cuff.Did you catch the comedy show on the state of the union speech?
Why don’t you just listen to Rushes last speech at CPAC.Tell me what ya think.Lets debate that as CPAC is this week.Little more current.If you want me to admit that Rush has made mistakes in all those 10s of thousands of broadcast excellence hours …..Im sure he has.Cant remember anything too earth shattering.But No-one is perfect.And lets remember AL Frankin wrote one of those books.Al Frankin for christ sakes.Truth is though …. daily Rush shreds liberal ideals.Effectively and persuasively.He wins millions of hearts and minds to the simple truths that is conservatism.The greatness of this country.And the folly that is modern day liberalism.And even catching him in a miss step once or twice every day(and you don’t)will not weaken his message.He is a giant compass that points out leftist hypocracy, and lies.And for 25 years the left has not laid a glove on him.And you guys are the best..the absolute best on personal attack.A fraud simply could not stand for long under the lefts attack machine.
We have similar types.Ann coulter writes volumes on liberal lies.Obama lies.That is usually by the day and lies in every word they say.Not gleaning 25 years of 4hours a day broadcast for a few things to lampoon to a liberal choir..So you hate Rush and well you should.He is a rock that is battering your ship of state to tinder.I think he is a great patriot,who has done so much to wake up people to the threat liberalism poses.
ps Saw Michael Moore is suing his partners for a couple of million.Thought he cared nothing about dirty green.Another liberal hero shows his colors.
Thank you, micheal, for your lengthy reply. It is quite revealing. I am finding it a little bit difficult to talk to you though, for the same reason I usually struggle in attempting rational discussion with my friends on the right. Rather than showing any curiosity about what I think, you seem intent on telling me where I am wrong. Or simply that you â┚¬Ã…“feelâ┚¬Ã‚ I am wrong. This is not helpful. You ask me no questions, but rather choose to parrot the arrogant prejudices of right wing pundits, assuming, rather patronizingly, that you know more about me than I do. You are quite free with your accusations about me, as well as Obama and others. It is hurtful, and not at all conducive to conversation.
Of course I did ask you what your idea of the â┚¬Ã…“liberal agendaâ┚¬Ã‚ is but I honestly hoped for a more thoughtful reply from you. By simply dittoing Rush, at least, you make it easy for me to identify his lies for you, as you have listed them yourself. To start with, your notions of what I, a self-identified liberal, believe, are almost entirely false. â┚¬Ã…“No core valuesâ┚¬Ã‚Â??? Ouch. Do you think I am some kind of monster? How am I supposed to reply to that? You do not know me, and neither does Rush. I do not, for instance, believe in a â┚¬Ã…“smartâ┚¬Ã‚ government â┚¬Ã…“more able to conduct the affairs of peoples lives than they themselves are,â┚¬Ã‚ and I know no liberals that do. And I don’t believe in â┚¬Ã…“an explosion of social programs far beyond any safety net ever imagined.â┚¬Ã‚ Who makes this stuff up? It really is common knowledge that these things are not true. They are pure nonsense and fabrications, easily proven false by intelligent conversation with any thoughtful liberal, something you seem reluctant to try. They are simply lies, conveniently invented for you to keep you from seeing your neighbors with either clarity or compassion.
Without your curiosity though, I will not waste time attempting to disabuse you of more misperceptions about me or my liberal ideals. But there is a larger lie that should not go unchecked, and that is that the federal government is incapable of controlling wealth. It has actually done a pretty good job of that over my lifetime, relatively speaking, anyway. And we should all be grateful, for it has meant a relatively strong middle class. We are deeply indebted to the much-maligned New Deal which has protected us fairly well from the rich. I urge to be very careful about repeating that lie. It is important to all of us, including you, that the government do its best to keep limits on the power that money invariably has.
In fact Thomas Jefferson said, â┚¬Ã…“The purpose of government is to protect the people from the moneyed interests.â┚¬Ã‚ Very wise, very important. He knew, as any serious student of history knows, that money always looks out for money. And in this country, as around the world, our moneyed interests are working hard to destroy the middle class and grow the desperate pool of working poor. It’s not an ideal or a conspiracy â┚¬“ I’m not saying they hate us or are out to get us â┚¬“ they just want to pay less for their labor. If they are not limited in this effort, by you and the right, they will soon create a third world nation of us. That’s not my â┚¬Ã…“liberal belief,â┚¬Ã‚ or something I “feel” to be true, it’s a very simple and verifiable fact. As government limits are lifted, poverty soars. By defending and promoting the right wing you are supporting the demise of your own beloved country. Please recognize this before it is too late.
I think that a lot of the perceived differences between the left and the right are actually misperceptions that have been perpetuated because they’re easier than being thoughtful and seeking truth. I think we have more in common than we realize. That said, let me try to explain my economic reasons for self-identifying as a liberal. There is an inherent unfairness in life, and I accept that some people just have it better than others. However, here in America there is this generally accepted notion that anyone can be successful if they work hard enough, and that if someone is not financially successful, they probably just don’t work hard enough. This idea creates a system where wealth is self-justified and where the wealthy are not considered to have any responsibility toward the poor. The capitalist system is basically every man for himself, but it also encourages people to take advantage of each other for self-gain. Capitalism requires a large working class, and that working class is rapidly becoming poorer. I will use myself as an example. I am in a better position than most people. I have a college education, a full-time job with benefits, and almost no debt. I am able to support myself unless something happens. If I were to need hospitalization for an illness or accident, I would either need money from my family and friends or I would immediately plunge into insurmountable debt. If I were to marry someone in a similar situation, we would not be able to afford a child because both of us would have to work full time in order to survive. 40 years ago, a family could live simply on one income without going into hopeless debt. Economic policies since the Reagan era have evolved to give the government less oversight and less regulation, which has led inevitably to a widening gap between the rich and the poor, and it’s a gap that is widely regarded as fair and acceptable. Elsewhere in the developed world, government’s role is to help mitigate these effects of capitalism in order to protect the human rights of life, liberty, and dignity. There is a desperation in this country, everyone competing with everyone else, trying to either get ahead or stay ahead. This unchecked capitalism leaves behind children, the elderly, and the disabled. I would rather live in a culture that protects its weakest and most vulnerable citizens.
While I understand your need to respond to FAIR blog’s resident (and blessedly, only) right-wing liar and kook, Doug, you are wasting your time. It’s only going to aggravate you as the “Wall” returns with his sack of crazy lies and bullshit, pulling one out after the other, utterly impervious to rationality or good sense. I and many others have been dealing with him here for many months; the best thing to do is not deal with him at all. He has nothing but contempt for anyone who actually has a nuanced view of the world, and he has never apologized for the lies he’s told here, some of them over and over. Jim Naureckas (and others) have repeatedly cited factual information to counter his lies, and not once has he conceded that he might be wrong, even in the face of hard, quite common truths that any fool should be aware of.
So: This person “thinks” just like some of the more odious members of Congress, as well as celebrity morons and mendacious cretins like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. You cannot reason with him–there are no facts, or rational discourse, only opinions borne out of paranoid delusions about the Other. You, and me, and many others (Liberals, Egyptians, minorities of every color and creed) are the Other. Too bad, but try to enjoy the sheer, accidental-comic tone and tenor of the boy’s work. It’s all you’re gonna get.
P.S.: Good, thoughtful comments, Jill W.
Thanks for the heads up, Tim. I am new to this list, and to blogging in general, frankly, and so I am jumping in here with a certain degree of naiveté. Of course I have wondered if I’m just being baited into playing the â┚¬Ã…“earnest liberalâ┚¬Ã‚ to micheal’s self righteous â┚¬Ã…“conservative.â┚¬Ã‚ (Hence my question, micheal, as to why you are saying such things to we who are interested in watching the media. Are you just doing this for your own entertainment, or are you hoping to influence people? I am still curious, if you have an answer for me.) I know from experience how readily these conversations become dead ends. I do think it’s important to continue to attempt to reach across this artificially enhanced (media driven) divide though. I have family and friends who are in micheal’s camp, and I continue to look for new ways in which to understand them and communicate with them. I was hoping â┚¬“ and still have some hope, micheal â┚¬“ for more considerate and rational conversation. It is so important.
But without consideration and rationality we are left with name-calling and empty sloganeering. There is no joy in that, and no progress to be made. I appreciated Jill’s comments too. Without disagreeing with you, Jill (in fact I do agree completely), I am slow to say that the wealthy have a responsibility toward the poor â┚¬“ the rich can be crazy-worried about gold-digging â┚¬“ but I do believe, as you assert as well, that it is the responsibility of the government to limit the advantage the rich have over the poor. Which is why I wish we still had the democracy I used to think we had. The poor man’s vote is his only defense, and that only if it is counted. â┚¬Ã…“Every man for himselfâ┚¬Ã‚ is one thing, but when it is every man trying to compete with huge corporations it is no longer a reasonable competition. The man will lose to the corporation almost every time, and no matter how hard he works he will only lose ground. For evidence of that we need look no further than rural America, devastated by tax-supported Agribusiness and Wal-mart. Our country is dying, not from outside threats, but inner ones. As government, from both parties, joins increasingly with big business we all suffer.
This is not an ideological war of the righteous against the unrighteous, micheal, no matter what Rush says. You have this from the mouth of a liberal. Though those battles may certainly be waged, the stance of the Republicans especially, with the Democrats (including Obama) right behind, is all about money. As Jill points out, it is an economic war, and it is being waged against us. We, the people. And we are all, liberals and conservatives alike, being cut off at the knees together by the robber barons. I can’t fathom how anyone but a billionaire would support their cause.
I am still curious, micheal, if you have answers for me, but I am not interested in playing games about it and just talking past each other. If that is the way you operate, as Tim says, I will soon seek out others who may be more open-minded. There is no time to waste.
Doug
Tim and i disagree because he he an acknowledged socialist who believes anyone who can not see the immense wisdom in his style of government is a slack jawed moron.His admonition to everyone who will listen on this blog to shun anyone who has conservative viewpoints is troubing.But if i were him….I would probably use this tact.Really what else is open?
Actually i wrote you a lengthy point by point dissertation then, deleted it.I realized you sound like a good person who wants to help those less fortunate,and you have certain beliefs about what will be the best method for doing that.My guess is you are not an ideologue ,and will reach conclusions over time that will be a mixed bag.Good.If a time comes when you earn, or your children earn a good coin by your own hard work you may even be surprised that you now are in the enemy class as set aside by the Dems.To be punitively punished. Remember every prejudice needs a boogeyman.For the left it is so called corporatism or the so called moneyed elite.They don’t really exist,but that makes an even better canard.A shadow wrapped in a shadow.I may have answers for you.In the sense that i will not let you fall into the trap of being surrounded by the howl of voices all singing the same tune.And for the most part that is FAIR.
You may even believe now that government is the vehicle to right the wrongs in society and help those most needy.We must agree to disagree.
In this country we are all born equal.That lasts about one second after birth and than reality sets in.It is not governments job to see that we finish equal.No government so empowered could ever become anything more than a thrashing machine- gone wild inside the machine. Government- is the guard dog that bites the hand that feeds it.I hope that as the conservative ascendancy into the power vacuum moves forward that you will acknowledge some of the good ideas they carry with them.I think as you see the economy respond you will be heartened.Tim will see the creation of Jobs and the resurgence of business with a corresponding inflow of money to the government as all bad.As the lights come back on, Tim will miss the solidarity of the dark.
Hope ya hang around
I have a question rolling around in my head that I must ask.How do you view the monetary situation of Barock Obama?He is rich.Very rich.Not through any particular talent or industry.He made his money as in effect a reality star. Became famous due to your vote, and pandered his fame with a book or two.Little like Snooky.His industry helped no one but himself.
He has never given to charity.Only recently has he begun this for political reasons.Even his immediate family lives in squaller,and this man of the poor does……….nothing.His own brother living on 20 bucks a year.He is landed.Landed gentry if you will.And how about how he acquired that land?You can smell that crooked deal a mile away.Beautiful homes.His daughters will be schooled at only the best Ivy league schools.Believe me they will NOT go into social work.Just like Chelsie Clinton -Ithey will marry or end up on the right side of big money.If his investments(and they will be massive)are not tied in some fashion to successful corporations I will as they say-eat my own hat.His healthcare will be payed for 100% for he and his for life.And not the shite he wants the rest of us to have either.He will spent his years playing golf in Hawaii…..um Just like the rest of us.He says “how much is enough”.My guess in his case will be in the neighborhood of 100 million.Although Clinton went from leaving office 10 million in the hole(legal costs for defense of his assault charges)to 100 mil in 5 years!Gore was on his way to being a billionaire before his self created global warming industry collapsed.Im sorry guys but can you spell hypocrisy?To quote a famous rabbit named Bugs …”It is but to laugh”
Hi micheal. I appreciate your last two contributions. You and I certainly disagree on a number of things, and it doesn’t look like I was able to influence you much with my last contribution. But I can see that you are passionate about some of these issues, and I think it is important that you continue to show you care.
That being said, I also appreciate Tim’s frustration. I expect he speaks for a number of other contributors to this blog when he warns me that it doesn’t usually do much good to try to reason with you. You do seem to be missing (and/or dismissing my point) about the moneyed interests. Is this willful, or do you not understand? I can’t tell. It’s not really my or anyone else’s â┚¬Ã…“opinionâ┚¬Ã‚ as you seem to think, that corporations are undermining the economy. A generation ago it was harder to spot, as a lot was done under the table, but nowadays they don’t even try to hide it. The evidence is hard to miss for anyone paying attention.
This is, of course, why it’s so important that these same moneyed interests own the media. So they can continually tell you that they are not doing what they are doing â┚¬“ and so they can blame others when things go wrong. They can even blame the â┚¬Ã…“liberal media,â┚¬Ã‚ despite the obvious fact that they own it all. Not just Fox, which is the most flagrant in their propaganda, but all the major â┚¬Ã…“newsâ┚¬Ã‚ outlets. There is no â┚¬Ã…“liberal machineâ┚¬Ã‚ to match it, as you seem to think. Corporations don’t sponsor liberal voices, so liberal voices don’t get heard. I mean, why would they pay to air opinions other than their own? Corporations are not people, who might have generous hearts and open minds, they are mandated by their own constitutions to make as much money as they can, no mater who gets hurt. They’re not going to do anything at all that isn’t in their own best (short term) interests. There are no liberal news outlets of any mainstream size.
This is, of course, why it’s so important to us â┚¬“ we, the people who are interested â┚¬“ that FAIR does what it does, pointing out the very conservative bias of the press. Frankly, I don’t know how they keep up. Reading the Minneapolis Star Tribune every day I find many more examples of â┚¬Ã…“selectiveâ┚¬Ã‚ news reporting. Fortunately I also read other sources which cover at least some of the missing and underreported stories. But it does make it more difficult to talk to my friends and relatives who think they pretty much know what’s going on from the usual news they absorb through the standard channels.
Including Rush. He is as mainstream as can be, no matter what he tells you about how he represents some counter movement. I can see that he is an important figure in your life, micheal, so I’m not here to put him down, any more than I am here to slam you. It seems Mr. L. makes a lot of inroads with many people who kind of like the way he puts things. He has very strong opinions and a very big (corporately sponsored) microphone with which to impress them on us. He certainly seems to have made an impression on you, to the point where you seem unable to admit that he has lied to you. OK, I’ll not press the issue. If others on this blog have not convinced you, and the books you say you have read have not made an impression on you, I don’t see where I am going to.
But I will try to answer your questions about Obama tomorrow, if I have time. I frankly find it very interesting.
Doug Tim and i do not see eye to eye.He is a passionate socialist who never….never talks about how in Gods name a socialist government would work here.So he acts like a bore worm undermining everything around him,almost never showing his true colors.That said
I would ask people like you(and you seem a considered person)who you are speaking about when you say corporations. Corporations make up the great majority of of all businesses big and small in this country.It is a legal designation of protection for any business desiring it.Now Glen Beck pointed to hours of specific charges against George Soros and his liberal corporate machine.We are going to need those specifics against right leaning giants of industry and wealth, to judge collusion in illegal matters of control of our government.
My feeling is that corporations are you and I.As I was told overseas……”.All Americans are guilty and in conspiracy to rule the world””Your rich your middle class your poor and your leaders”So Doug that is you!That is me!How does it feel to be apart of this canard?Personally I missed the meeting on global rule and I didn’t see you there.As far as media bias….Doug did you see the last election?At best we are now on equal footing due to some of the right wing loudmouths and FOX.
Look you are a gem on these blogs.One of the Tim believers informed me(on these blogs)that I would be better off elsewhere due to this being a meeting house for socialists.I think America has been pretty definitive that they are moving right.I may be odd men out here……but in the real world it is those on these pages that are deaf to the American people.Thanks for the discourse.Hope you stay about.
The “librul media bias” trope is older than barry goldwaters career, but really started gaining traction in the late 80’s , because thats when conservative activists in collusion with network executives (a description which entirely DEFINES FOX news), began pushing that myth with a purpose. Before that, news anchors and journalists were viewed by most people as straight edged, objective observers, (and that facts just tend to have a “liberal bias” it even says so in the Bible, after all). The introduction of political partisanship into the news, and the removal of it from every other facet of life, is what keeps Americans as ignorant, capitalist lackeys.
Blackplates says…….(drumroll please….)And what political ideology do you subscribe to?
Hi micheal. I don’t think you and I agree any more than you and Tim. I don’t know if Tim self-identifies as a socialist, as you called him, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear you apply that label to me as well. I am not fond of labels, and avoid using them on myself or others as much as possible, but I wouldn’t take that one as an insult. I would only hope that you wouldn’t dismiss me entirely over it and refuse to dialog with me further. For the record, I do think that European style socialism has been proven to work very well in Sweden and France, for instance. You might be right that it will never fly in this country, I don’t know, but I don’t see the point in dismissing the concept out of hand. Those countries have a strong middle class and very little poverty compared to the U.S. That’s a good thing, isn’t it?
But if I haven’t alienated you yet, I want to respond to your paragraph about Obama and his money, etc. It’s interesting to hear that that is what is â┚¬Ã…“rolling aroundâ┚¬Ã‚ in your head. I’m curious as to why. You seem very concerned about the personal wealth of anyone you associate with the left, not only Obama, but Clinton and Michael Moore. Even Chelsea Clinton. Why? Do I detect a little glee in your voice when you point out that they have money? Is it the â┚¬Ã…“who do they think they areâ┚¬Ã‚ glee that is common with people who enjoy knocking down celebrities? Do you see these people as celebrities on the left, in kind of the same way you see Rush as a celebrity of the right? As idols who are supposed to be perfect? If so, I want to let you know that I don’t see them that way. If I don’t like to knock people down, I also don’t like to put them on pedestals. Now if you want to tell me that my mother is a liar I might get defensive and resist your attempts to confront me with your proof, so she might be an exception, but if you tell me that Obama is not perfect you don’t get much of a rise out of me. I’m not here to defend him.
That being said, I’m not really sure what you are accusing him or these other people of exactly. Are you under the impression that everyone on the left has taken a vow of poverty or something? Or do you think that when I talk about the â┚¬Ã…“moneyed interestsâ┚¬Ã‚ I am talking about anyone who is wealthy? Far from it. Millionaires, of course, have it nice in this country, and though I am not one myself I do not begrudge them their comforts. There are any number of entertainers and sports figures who are rich. I would guess Rush is a millionaire. Whatever. I think they should be taxed accordingly, and I hope they are generous towards their favorite charities, but beyond that it is not my concern.
Billionaires are a little bit different story. They aren’t necessarily Jefferson’s â┚¬Ã…“moneyed interests,â┚¬Ã‚ all by themselves, but they probably are. That much money brings a lot of power. But I say “probablyâ┚¬Ã‚ because their money came from somewhere other than from singing songs or hitting a golf ball. So they are not â┚¬Ã…“earningâ┚¬Ã‚ their wealth even if you call a million dollars a game earning. Billionaires are different than millionaires (even if they both probably vote Republican). Do you know the difference between a million and a billion? Picture it this way. You can put a million dollars in a grocery sack. A pile of 1,000 dollar bills is only about one foot high. A billion dollars is a thousand times that. So where a million dollar stack of thousand dollar bills doesn’t even come up to your knees, a billion dollars reaches nearly to the top of the empire state building. So billionaires have a lot of money, a lot more money than millionaires.
But that still may be none of my business, you might say. â┚¬Ã…“It’s a free country.â┚¬Ã‚ That’s where we might have a disagreement, because that’s where the â┚¬Ã…“moneyed interestsâ┚¬Ã‚ come in. We have more billionaires in this country than any other and their numbers are growing fast â┚¬“ even as the economy tanks. And â┚¬“ importantly â┚¬“ because the economy tanked. Wall Street wanted this crisis and engineered it nicely. It’s not hard to see. Poverty is good for billionaires. Why do you think so much labor is outsourced from here? The multi-nationals feed on poverty. In their ideal world, they won’t have to outsource anymore. We’ll have enough poverty right here at home.
You don’t have to look far to see how this works. Rural America is looking more like Haiti every year. There are other factors in what has happened there, so let’s not get too distracted, but just ask yourself who benefits from that growing poverty, and who perpetuates it. You won’t be surprised, I’m sure, to find that it’s the same corporation. And it’s a big one. You know I’m talking about Wal-mart, right? Four of Sam Walton’s beneficiaries are listed in Forbes’ latest list of the top ten wealthiest people in the world. All â┚¬Ã…“worthâ┚¬Ã‚ billions. You can look up the figures and figure out how many empire state buildings you have to stack up to picture their wealth. Are we to the moon yet? Some might call it obscene. It’s certainly obscene how they acquired that wealth. The cost to our country, through the unconscionably low wages they pay and what they have contributed to the near total destruction of the economy of rural America, has been enormous. Hard to calculate. One family, one corporation.
You’re right, of course, anyone can incorporate their business. When we talk about Corporate America though we are talking about the big boys. The 3% or so of corporations who control about 98% of the wealth in this country. They’re easy to name. They’re the 3% who can afford to advertise on television. We’re talking about the very elite few. And what do they do with their wealth? Is it â┚¬Ã…“trickling downâ┚¬Ã‚ anywhere, as Reagan promised it would? Hardly. It gets â┚¬Ã…“invested.â┚¬Ã‚ In Wall Street. In our famously â┚¬Ã…“failingâ┚¬Ã‚ banks. That’s a longer story. But the short version is that it goes towards making the rich richer and the poor poorer, eviscerating the middle class. This is why I care. This wealth, pooling only at the very top, is destroying our country.
Call it the Wal-mart model. Or the Haitian model. Pick your example from any country where American corporate â┚¬Ã…“influenceâ┚¬Ã‚ has decimated the economy, where there is no more middle class and the poor eat mud. Literally. (That’s just about any third world nation in the world, anywhere where we have propped up a dictator for them. Ask an Egyptian how he feels about it.) This is the direction our country has been headed ever since Reagan, and it is directly attributable to privatization and the rest of the conservative agenda. It’s what happens when there is no government strong enough anymore to keep a lid on such wantonness. And no press to call the government on it. Only shrill voices, such as your own, my friend, who continue to blame the people who the corporations want you to blame. People like me.
For all practical purposes, these corporations really own the government, no matter who you voted for, and the media, no matter which channel you watch. They certainly own Rush. Which brings us back to Obama’s wealth. I can see where that makes an easy target for Rush. But his money can only surprise you if you are thinking that he is a socialist. He is far from that and always has been. He comes from the Chicago school of economics and has always been fiscally â┚¬Ã…“conservative.â┚¬Ã‚ He was right there for the big meetings about how the taxpayers were going to bail out the banks. Believe me, there was no discussion there about the redistribution of wealth. It’s convenient for the powers that be to describe him as liberal and even socialist as it makes it easier to shift the â┚¬Ã…“centerâ┚¬Ã‚ to the right, but he has never been very far to the left. (He’s to the right of Richard Nixon in some ways.) He couldn’t possibly have been elected if he was. Not because the people wouldn’t want it, but because the moneyed interests wouldn’t have it. Obama’s personal wealth doesn’t bother me, any more than Rush’s, but how much they are each indebted to their corporate masters does.
Are you still reading, micheal? Anyone? I’m sorry to go on and on, but these things are important to me and my wife is sick of hearing me talk about it! I’ll cut it out now, if you like, but if you want to hear more, ask me about the role of the Pentagon in all of this. Or I can happily cede the floor to whoever wants to pick it up there.
Peace.
Doug….Yeah Tim is an admitted socialist.And I feel the same as you about wealth.None of my business.But that goes all the way to the top.I dont believe the boogey man is just on the other side of the hill that i cant quite see.Most people even billionaires put on their pants the same way.I dont believe they own the government.Or the pentagon for that matter.You could use that applied logic in any field.
One thing you said is funny.Yes i do think liberals need to take a promise of poverty.And I think they should pay more taxes.Give more to charity.This is their mantra and I would have them live it.But of course it is hypocritical..As Obama is.My point was how can a man like him of great wealth who preaches enforced charity upon our population have none in his own heart?
As far as France and Europe…I have spent a goodly amount of time there and it is a bloody collapsing mess.For a time their socialist programs worked because in real effect America picked up the tab(defense for instance)They are now all trying to extricate themselves from this failed system as we delve forward.Today the leaders of France,Germany and England have even admitted multi culturalism has failed.People have set up states within a state bypassing the melting pot effect.WE are now moving in that direction.Amazing sometimes i believe the left is bound and determined to dig up every failed policy the world over just to prove they can make it work.Now Im ranting.
Peace
Hi micheal. You’ve ignored most of what I wrote last night, so I won’t go on. But you say the most outrageous things about boogey men being just over the hill, for instance. Huh? And Obama seems to be your boogey man. I haven’t heard him preach “enforced charity.” I’m curious where that came from. I’m also curious who you think is in charge, if the not the billionaires. Liberals? That’s just weird. Of course we are all human. I’m not arguing otherwise, but the extremely rich have a lot of power. That’s the way of the world, and that’s how capitalism works, isn’t it? If you have the capital you have the power. If we don’t limit that power we have no middle class. As far as American foreign policy goes, the most interesting, and very readable book, I’ve read on the subject is Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins. Have you read it? Perhaps you’ve already found a way to dismiss it, but what he says is consistent with other sources.
it’s been very interesting talking to you, micheal. I can see you have completely different points of reference than I do, and that is valuable for me to see. It has contributed to a very different world view for you than what I have. This makes it hard for us to connect. I am clearly talking about things for which you have no way to respond directly to. It’s as if I’m talking Greek or something. It’s not computing for you. And your views seem narrow to me, as you seem disinterested in “following the money,” as I have tried to encourage you to do. That is my “mantra,” if I have one, and it has been very eye-opening for me in my reading, and I would encourage you to try looking at things that way. But I know that my viewpoints seem narrow to you too, off base, or naive, and that’s ok. I’m still learning too.
Doug W, don’t feed the troll, you seem to be a very thoughtful and considerate peson. I share much of your opinions and we are in agreement generally. I hope that you will take what TimN has said about the resident right winger. When I first started on FAIR a few months ago, I tried to discuss things with Michael e. to no avail. I really got very flustered in dealing with him. Now I gloss over every comment he makes, it is just a waste of my time. Jim Naureckas and TimN also advised me when I first started here. I’m not extremely opinionated, but I do lean left and am a shameless liberal and do not mind admitting it. Thank you for your sincere comments, all the best!
Donald, the same goes for you regarding what TimN said about Michael e.
JillW, I think I love you. I do at least agree with you and thanks for the comments.
Michael e. I’m not picking on you, really, but facts are facts, and they are foreign to you, sadly.
Aw thanks Raymond, I’m blushing.
I think it’s unfortunate that michael e. is the lone voice from the right here; it would be nice to engage in some civil discourse with people who are genuinely interested in listening and sharing.
Doug, I would like to clarify my point about the rich having a responsibility toward the poor. I do believe we are ethically obligated to share resources with those who are less fortunate than we. I don’t think that the millionaires of our society “owe” me anything, simply because I have less money than they do and that’s not fair. I have never had to go without a meal or a roof over my head; in fact I’ve had more than I have needed. But there are those, particularly children and the disabled, who literally do not have food or shelter and yes, I think that people who have more than they need should help people who do not have what they need to survive. Beyond that, I am not especially concerned with what people do with their money, or how much they have.
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